5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks for the advice re the fasting back to back. Not sure I can handle it at work or at the weekends! I'll try tmrw and if I fail I'll eat normally and try again on Saturday

Stately wel done for getting back on I find that the hardest bit. It's when I stop weighing myself it's a sign I've not engaging in it all! and well done for loosing 22 pounds already amazing :)

Am hungry but not toooo bad, I won't need anything else will prob sleep at ten so day is over quickly!

I had the hugest piece of cod and broccoli for dinner only 200 cals! Def suggest it to anyone wanting dinner on a fast day (I think u r prob all pros and I'm sounding obvious - and I'm only on day 1 but still surprised as to how much I managed to eat for 200 cals)

Yes, fish & veg are brilliant on FDs, low cal, filling and super-healthy. I adore grilled salmon.
Prawns or tuna (canned in brine, not lil) are especially low cal.

Last week was two fast days, previously I had not fasted for 5 weeks.

Most of your list I do daily anyway, I very rarely drink, I don't snack very often certainly not since being mindful of what I'm eating.

Evenings are my biggest downfall. We eat between 6-7 but come 9pm I am hungry. On a fast day I don't eat until 2pm.

Today I was manic so didn't eat until 1pm (NFD) but had my breakfast at 8:30 (Greek yogurt with porridge oats) is that a good thing to do? It seems to work pretty well for me but I know I probably shouldn't be eating that late

Sparkly If you are losing comfortably and feeling good, then whatever meal timing works for you.

Supper tips to avoid late hunger:

• Boost protein, especially fish.
• Check that carb portions are sensible, within about 100g cooked weight. Feeling hungry later is a classic sign of over-large carb portions
• Boost legumes (beans, lentils, peas) to partly replace starchy carbs
• Avoid sugary junk, keep alcohol within nhs limits and no more than 1 portion fruit.

Tip: After you finish the meal, drink a glass of water and clean your teeth - it gives a fresh taste which helps avoids late hunger / nibbling.

Very impressed with the latkes b&w I must admit mine aren't the best, DH's grandmother is the queen of fried foods she won't let anyone else in her kitchen and she hasn't passed on her secret recipe yet.

sparkly I find eating a fair amount of protein and lots of veg helps to stop me from snacking in the evening. I have my tea at 6.30 and fill half my plate with veg, a portion of protein (usually a quarter of my plate) and a quarter plate of low gi carb. I also have a 'dessert' of a small portion of Greek Yoghurt and/or a cup of Cocoa (I don't add sugar or sweetener but I do add cinnamon to sweeten). Psychologically I feel like I've had a big dinner and a treat.
I have red bush or camomile later if I fancy something.
It keeps me satisfied - the protein and veg really makes a difference for me but everyone is different!

Monikita do u use cocoa powder? I think I'll need something to top my dinner off today - that sounds like a good treat!
I'm fasting again today, I am tired but luckily working from home and will not be expending much or any energy!

And the days I don't fast I eat tdee? I've got a lot of dinners out this weekend planned but I'm planning on sticking to only main course (dh is very supportive so will have to do the same!) and have checked out menus so I choose grills/dry/salad type food as ow I'm sure I'll go over tdee!

Hi everyone first FD of the week here. Had quite a sensible weekend food wise (even managed to only have 1 sweet from the celebration tin that was opened on Sunday night!) sparkly I have the same problem late evening snacking, it's usually around 9pm too, feel like I need tea and biscuits so I now try and have some exercise planned an hour or so after dinner and that has taken away that urge to eat later on hope that's of some help. I haven't caught up with the thread so will go and have a read later. Good luck today fasters

NFDs
A low-medium GI supper, without junk, then cleaning your teeth should reduce the desire to snack.
You may need to slightly increase supper size - the protein & veg, not the starchy carbs

As a rough NFD aim, you should eat (and drink !) your TDEE, or less.
This is important training for maintenance later, to avoid regain.

The FDs are where you lose weight, but if you average a lot more than TDEE on NFDs, then you are eating back the FD deficit, which would slow / stop weight loss

f you like more freedom at weekends, then you can eat a few hundred cals below TDEE on weekday NFDs, so it averages out.

Tip:
If you've a few stone to lose and want to speed up loss:
it is better to eat to TDEE of your goal weight on 2-3 NFDs, rather than adding additional FDs.

Hi Trying, yes I use pure Cocoa powder - not much, just under a tsp and at the moment because I'm feeling Christmassy, I add a teeny bit of ground ginger and about half a tsp of cinnamon (which is quite a lot but has a good effect on my blood sugars).
I use unsweetened almond milk on fds and big nfds, and whole milk if I'm having a hungry nfd (usually if I've done weights).

A lot of chain restaurants state calories on their online menus which is great if you want to plan ahead. Well, nando's does anyway

That sounds lovely! I think I'll have one tmrw prob no calls today as struggling with back to back fast but I'm confident I'll get in at 550 today and tmrw I'll eat 200 less than my tdee to compensate!

I might be wrong but I'm sure I've read Bigchoc state that you can have up to 650 a day when you do a back to back fast - I think it goes up to compensate for extra fat burning on an extended day and to prevent excess stress on the body.

Extended fast not day

Oh!!! I would be grateful if bigchoc could let me know as I prob will have to do back to back as mon/tues tend to be my easiest work days and also most boring socially!!!

Yes, up to 650 cals daily for b2b, preferably low carb FDs - this is the 5:2 b2b protocol developed by Dr Michelle Harvie, whose research was financed by breast cancer research charities.

Her 2 published human trials - specifically on overweight women at risk of breast cancer recurrence - found that test subjects on this protocol lost more weight and had lower risk markers than control groups on a standard calorie-controlled daily diet.

Not so relevant if you are just interested in weight loss, but for full health benefits her aubjects had Mediteranean food for the NFDs:
fish, several portions vegetables, 1-2 portions fruit, olive oil, beans, lentils, moderate portions of whole grains, nuts, plain yoghurt. Alcohol only within nhs limits and minimal added sugar

I don't think anyone has ever compared results for standard 5:2 (500 cal FDs) with 5:2 b2b (650)
So, I recommend people do whichever they find more sustainable.

Almost everyone finds b2b too tough as a WOE, but there are a few folk who prefer it, e.g. they do Mon+Tue, so they start the week getting both FDs under their belt

Thanks bigchoc. I managed 600 today am pretty tired and looking forward to eating normally tmrw (I'm usually very med diet and calorie count but had reached my usual weight when I need a push to loose more and I do have a slight tendency to want choc cake every day after I've been an angel on my med diet!)
I'm not drinking alcohol till Xmas eve (I've said it out loud now!)

I did
1 weetabix and almond milk and blueberries
2 egg and 1 quorn sausage
Cod marinated. Mixed veg and 1 spoon of rice!

The weetabix prob wasn't the best choice - any other ideas for fast day brekkie except for eggs? Not sure I can handle eggs in and and for lunch

Quick fly by here as life beyond manic. However I have managed another lb this week. Not breaking any records here but slow and steady isn't going to hurt!
The next two / three weeks are going to be largely damage limitation as it's my birthday but before that there are various big do's.
But I'm keeping in the 5:2 BSD mindset so that any naughtiness is within limits

Fd 1 finished - had split peas in homemade chicken broth with steamed cabbage and broccoli, greek yog, cocoa, as well as a miso sachet earlier in the day.

1lb a week is brilliant mootime.

For breakfast, instead of eggs, how about cottage cheese and nuts / flax? Or could you skip it and eat slightly more for lunch and tea?

Well done on your SV, Moo That's steady progress

Trying Probably wisest to keep 3 small meals for b2b, but if you ever do single FDs you can try just unsweetened black espresso for breakfast.

FD breakfasts without egg:

• Plain Greek yoghurt, flaked almonds, berries
• Oatmeal, almond / cashew milk, cinammon
• Flaxmeal, almond milk, cinammon, stevia (flaxmeal is bitter, so needs a sweetener). I love Linwoods cocoa & berry flaxmeal - it has a super high ORAC (antioxidant rating)
• Chia pud = 80 ml chia seeds, 230 ml coconut milk +honey / stevia, refrigerated overnight so it gels
• Smoked salmon with avocado or salad
• Almond bread with bacon or 5% fat Philadelphia or baked beans
• Protein shake = low carb powder with water or Atkins RTD (used in Harvie's b2b human trials)

Ooh BigChoc I like that tip of trying to stay within TDEE of goal weight for those of us with lots to lose. I'm off to recalculate what that would be.

Thanks to this woe I have finally mastered the art of skipping meals without feeling the need to lie down and gnaw my own arm off, so I could easily manage a couple of days a week at TDEE of goal weight I reckon. Top tip - thanks!

That trick can really boost loss, CQ but only if you keep at what is sustainable for you

You could ease in with 1-2 NFDs below current TDEE, then gradually get to goal TDEE - Keep at least one NFD per week at your current TDEE, though, to keep it sustainable.

Other advantages:

• It helps avoid the hunger / regain after you've lost 40-50 lb, when your TDEE has reduced
• It helps you get used to eating what you'll need to stay at your goal weight

I posted cal-counted single servings of Chia Breakfast Pud and Chia Choc Pud on the 5:2 FD Recipes Thread
(my earlier post was for 3 portions)