5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Good luck, Monday fasters Let us know how you are doing today.

Excellent news, Emison
Intermittent Fasting can often work when nothing else does, e.g. to tackle gain from meno or meds

Hi all, mind if I join you?
I know this isn't the traditional time of year to start a new w.o.e. but I'm hoping it will help me to limit any festive damage! I lost about a stone by calorie restricting using mfp earlier in the year but got sick of logging everything and found I was relying on too much packaged food.
First fast day is today and I'm feeling hungry but manageably so.

Big NSV here. Refused scones and clotted cream while the rest of the office scoffed them!! So far so good on this FD. Just need to keep it up while I cook the kids tea.

Welcome, Difford and good luck on your 1st FD
Lots of tips & links in the "How to start" section of the OP, or just post whenever you need support.
The right time to start is whenever you feel it is.

Well done focusing on your FD, Moo and your resisting cream tea NSV
Remember:
Communal food has POO crumbs and snot

Thanks big choc. I've read through this thread and am working my way through the links. So much info, it's really helpful.
I think my main challenge will be not going overboard on non fast days. I want a break from logging but if needs be i will start using mfp every day for a few weeks in the new year. I've got at least 2 stone to lose to get down to a healthy weight but I'm happy to do it slowly

I usually have my main meal at lunchtime. Today I had carrot & coriander soup with a slice of rye bread. Dinner is going to be a portion of graze black pepper popcorn and a miso soup.

Amazing Moo! Great willpower - very jealous.

Hi Difford, I think it makes a lot of sense to start now - it's good to get in the right mindset and it makes it easier come January.

I've been having 2 unintentional fast days as I had a big meal on Saturday and managed to get food poisoning! Not feeling great and looking forward to feeling hungry rather than...food poisoningy :(

Released from the tyranny of sugar addiction.

That's exactly how it feels! I've just had my dinner, and I feel - well, full, without the need for anything else. This is such a change from 2 weeks ago, when I'd have been eyeing up my sweets/biscuits collection; wondering which would do the least damage. Feeling guilty when I had something; trying to limit the damage by setting a timer, etc.

Now I can choose to have something, as I did over the weekend (couple of chocolate liqueurs on Saturday - my alcohol day) without it opening the floodgates.

Feels good!

Evening all - norovirus well and truly behind me and have started the week not with a FD but at least a day with some sort of control. I skipped breakfast and did a c25k run, then had a nice late guilt-free lunch in town. Have also managed 20k steps today!

Tomorrow is a FD plus a workout at home, then hopefully another run the day after.

Welcome Difford - I think this is a great time of year to start - much better than January when everyone is feeling low and often doing it for the wrong reasons or feeling guilty about December excess.

My jeans still fit, but are now travelling down my backside - will need a belt soon. Am also feeling some dismay at loose skin - wrinkly bingo wings and a tummy like a shar pei thanks to giant baby and Lidl pastries. Not going to get too upset yet - need to lose a bit more weight and do a bit more working out, then see how it looks!

Hope the fasters are safely tucked up in bed now - I'm heading there too!

Late check in finished today on 501 cals, it was a hectic busy day which was great for keeping me out of the kitchen and had spin & gym class this evening so no time to think about food really dds birthday tomorrow so a house full tomorrow afternoon (lots of food which they will all be taking home) so at least today is done another one on either Wednesday or Friday will see how I'm going- will have a better read through the thread tomorrow I'm sure there's loads of great SV & NSV , glad to read your all on the mend eagle I'm off to bed now to although I'm a bit buzzy, need to unwind a bit first, good luck Tuesday fasters

Difford To help get NFDs under control without mfp:

• NO snacking even "healthy" ones Eat meals at least 4 hrs apart, nothing between Have any alcohol or other treats as part of a meal
• Keep within nhs alcohol limits, daily & weekly.
• Keep starchy carb portions - e.g. bread, potatoes, rice, pasta - within about 100g cooked weight total per meal.
• Cut right down on added sugar carbs - e.g. sweets, cake, biscuits - and on savoury junk carbs - e.g. pizza, deep fried food, crisps etc 2:5 them , i.e. limit them to say 2 days per week, one portion.
• Start each day with a glass of water and keep drinking water

Good to hear you are 100% again, EagleRay and well done on your jeans NSV

Re flab / loose skin:

• Rub in birch oil daily
• Resistance exercise: . Tricep dips on a step to tighten bingo wings . Plank to tighten abs . Shred level I (free on YouTube) for all round tightening up, 20 mins x twice per week

I hope you feel better v soon, Alyosha
For food poisoning, just dry toast is best, but do drink loads of water (not juice, tea or coffee)
Once you start to recover though, don't resume FDs for at least a few days after all symptoms have stopped - your stomach needs time to recover, or FDs may sometimes restart symptoms.
Instead, just aim for small nutritious meals, no junk, alcohol or juice.

Well done on your very energetic FD, WWW
Well done to all the other Monday fasters

Thanks all for the welcomes and advice.
I am feeling good this morning and even got off my train a stop early for an extra walk. I was convinced I would be starving this morning but I'm not. Had usual breakfast and will wait til lunch for next food.
Did have trouble sleeping though - just felt hyper alert. Does this get better over time?

Hi all, FD here and having a wee bit of a wobble, so came on here to keep me on the wagon. I have made a huge pan of soup and the smell is amazing. The kids had theirs for lunch. Was so tempted to have a bowl, but I CAN wait.

Welcome Difford! It makes complete sense to start a new WOE now. I fasted for the first time on the 21st of December, 3 years ago. It feels so good to be in control over Christmas. I definitely sleep easier now and don't get as cold as I used to on a FD. I think it helps that I don't eat until 6pm and have all of my calories together.

I have done a big shop so the fridge is full of healthy ingredients and I've made a list of all the meals I could make - some big, some quick and small - to keep me on the straight and narrow.

Mrs M&S - you can do it! Not long to wait now.
Difford I hope you are doing ok.
Ayo - I hope you feel better soon.

Weighed in today and 1 week in I have lost a grand total of 1lb... boo
I am not going to give up though (that would be the old me). I know this WOE works for me, I need to stick with it. Ideally I'd be under 12 stone by my birthday, but if I'm not, it's ok. My year of being 40 is going to be the start of a transformation. My 30's were my Fat decade, my 40's will be fabulous.

I've had an accidental fast day so far. Only had 3 cups of tea so I'm going to try and keep on track for a sub 700 cal day. I won't get supper til 8.30 though so may have a quick snack of hummus and carrots to tide me over.

Stay on track, MrsMandS not long to go and then you can enjoy that delic soup for aupper.

Difford Most folk find they are hyper-alert the first few weeks, but as your body gets used to fasting, sleep on FD nights should improve.

What helps sleep:

• No caffeine - coffee, coke etc - after 3 pm
• Stop exercise at least 3 hrs before bed
• Stop screens - phone, tablet, TV, gaming etc - at least 1 hr before bed
• As pp have said, if you can save all / most of your 500 cals for supper, that's a decent meal which helps you feel sleepy

Moo 1 lb per week is the average on 5:2, so the SVs should mount up over the weeks.
That weight didn't pile on over a few weeks, so it will take months to lose
Then you keep to a definite maintenance plan, so you don't regain and - you've nailed your goals !

In your case, best not to force this by adding additional FDs, because that can be too stressful - iirc you've done that before and it makes you crash out.
You need a system that is sustainable for you over months.

it's a WOL, not a race

After a few weeks, if you find progress on 5:2 BSD is slower than 1lb weekly, then:

• Check your intake on the NFDs - are you exceeding TDEE a lot ?
  Many people who have been overweight for several years have got used to eating far note than their body can burn.
  Indulgent weekends can mean you eat back your week's FD deficit, or even more.
  ==> mfp for a week, for a reality check.

• Are you eating back exercise cals on NFDs ?
  Most people and gadgets over-estimate exercise, so don't eat back a calculated amount for each specific exercise
  Instead, calculate TDEE for 1 activity level less than you think (Mosely's advice); your NFDs should be around / within this TDEE on average.
  So, no additional eating back or you'll be double counting exercise.

• (5:2 BSD only) check you are doing Mosely's daily Mediteranean low carb - no starches, alcohol or added sugar.
  If you can't manage that, best to do standard 5:2, i.e. 500 cal FDs and not specifically low carb

Thanks Bigchoc. I needed to hear all of that. You are right, I have often ended up binging by adding in too many Fds.
If I stick to today, then I'm done for the week. I'm off to recalculate my TDEE!!

Mootime, great that you have lost a 1lb! Something is always better than nothing, it's 1lb towards where you want to be.

Thanks everyone, I feel much better now :)

This week I'm eating out twice, so trying to keep to healthy salads for lunch on those days to not go over my TDEE.

Fast days I'm experimenting with me "healthy" yet "unhealthy" salad, where I carefully weigh Camembert, Prosciutto, Cherry Tomatoes and a few eggs to create a 500kcal salad, which will be my only meal of the day - I find it easier to eat all in one go. The salad part is a whole bag of rocket leaves!

Difford - re sleeping, I actually find I sleep better just after FDs. I know it affects everyone differently though. One thing that helped me in the past when I was having difficulty sleeping was to turn down the heating in my room before bed - not sure if that would help you though!

Struggling a bit with my Wednesday FD.......feeling very tempted ! No one else at home to stop me!
I need to get outside for a run with the dogs - hopefully that will distract me.
Still loosing steadily (approx 1.5lbs per week) - this week I have dropped through the stone barrier - psychologically a great boost.
Hope all the other Wednesday fasters are coping better than me.
I would REALLY like another 4lbs before christmas.

Samand, good luck! I always envisage how I will feel afterwards, disappointed with myself etc.

Best of luck! And very jealous on your progress. You must be doing something right!

Thanks Alyosha ....... I did give in to temptation. Had a bowl of fruit & yoghurt - so not too bad calorie wise. I feel OK now. Will have a small supper tonight.
My fast days are always better if I'm out of the house.

Ah well not too much harm done. Good luck on the rest of your day!