5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Congrats on your SV, Samand and your very encouraging stone milestone

Not long to go, fasters and you can have supper.

I'm fasting today too and I've just having a small protein shake after our 90 mins killer lifting class.
2 colleagues were celebrating 60th birthdays so at lunchtime ordered in a huge amount (for 120 people !) of pizza and assorted cheesecake & sweet tarts.
I just had the toppings from a few slices of pizza and binned the pastry (surreptitiously !); I never have sweet crap on FDs

(Binning pastry was ok, because there was loads left over this evening and I'd donated a tenner to their birthday envelope)

Evening all. NFD for me here but a massive NSV. Went to a conference which was catered for. I managed to turn down : croissants for breakfast, cookies with morning coffee, for lunch I didn't have the delish looking gnocchi and had chicken and veg instead, skipped the amazing array of puddings and also the Victoria sponge at tea!!
I'm so proud of myself. Had a V healthy supper too and well under TDEE.
Two weeks ago I would have scoffed the lot and thought to hell with it!

Sanand, I also find it harder to fast at home. Too many temptations , even healthy ones! ( FYI who knew that s babybel with almonds could be that yummy!)

Well done on all the SV and NSV
I'm checking in for my 2nd FD wearing my new size 14 jeans. That's 3 sizes smaller since I started 5:2 in June. I always buy the same jeans so I know it's a true drop.
Also dropped 2 top sizes.
Shopping isn't too bad after all

Hi all looks like lots of you are doing really well ...... well done!

Still 5:2ing here, Mondays and Thursdays generally, but it's not been going well overall and have put on a few lbs . Last couple of months have seen various life stresses escalate which definitely hasn't helped. Really battling to stay on track , or rather get back on track, but feeling pretty dejected and frustrated that I can't (yet) get back to 5:2 working for me and still have a lot of weight to lose. Want to have 5:2 as a WOL for all the other health benefits but regularly get so hungry on NFDs and overeat.

I know some of it is psychological but also feels like having lost over 50lbs in a relatively short time period a huge hunger has been 'triggered' to eat it all back.

I 'm probablly only half a stone up but am seriously facing the possibility of failing totally and going back to where I started. I'm delurking here to try to help myself get back to it all working well again.

Any advice from others who have had a temporary lapse? It's when the carb hunger hits that it's really difficult not to eat more than I need to

Off to glug more water now......

Hi Clearskies
With me it's definitely 'all in my head'. If my head is in the right place then I have no problems. I am a creature of habit (boring??) but I know I do better if I stick to the same routine.
So..... Mon & Wed = FDs
Tues, Thu, Fri & Sat = Eat normal meals but no alcohol or desserts. No snacking at all, no biscuits, cakes, crisps, bread etc
Sun = more of a relaxed day. I have bread, a glass of wine, piece of cheesecake after my meal.
I find a relaxed Sunday sets me up for the next week.
I always struggle with allowing myself a "little bit" of something nice. My "little bits" tend to lead to more & more.......so I have "no extra" days and then allow 1 day for treats.
I suppose what I am saying is "look at your whole week and try and find the balance that works for you"

FD here. Was very proud of my NFD yesterday: managed 15:9, 2 meals, lots of fruit and veg, no snacks. I'm hungry and cold today. Think it's harder as I FD on Tues this week rather than Monday.

Well done on your fantastic results Lady Catherine!

And well done mootime for showing such strength in the face of all those goodies!

Clearskies I'm in a similar boat. This WOL was second nature to me, then I had another baby and was ravenous for 9 months! I've tried to get back into fasting, but don't feel like it's quite 'clicked' yet and it's a bit of a struggle. For me, exercise is the key. The more I move, the better I feel, the less junk I eat. Also, the more I log on here, the better I do. 7lbs is nothing. A few FD and decent NFD will put a dent in it. You've done the right thing delurking! When is your next FD?

Congratulations on your fantastic clothes NSV, LadyC
3 sizes down for jeans, 2 for tops, all since June - Wow, you must be delighted.

Well done on resisting the conference sweet carbs fest and staying within TDEE, Moo Sounds a good healthy NFD

That's very sensible to post, clear so we can offer support & advice

Your problem seems to be carbs - you are probably insulin-resistant, so carbs spike hunger and you get in a cravings spiral.
You can break out of this, but it does mean being prepared to change some fundamental habits for at least some months.

On all diets, there is a tendency for the insulin-resistant especially to feel very hungry and regain after a large loss:
Your new weight naturally has a lower TDEE, but you are used to eating the same amount as you've eaten for years at your higher weight.

Additionally, if you have been overweight for a long time, then "adaptive thermogenesis" (dialling back metabolism) will lower your TDEE by about 15% if you have lost 50+ lb.
This can last a year or more and is due to homeostasis - your body trying to return to a set point it held for a long time.

Research by Dr Jason Fung on his T2 patients suggests that a combination of intermittent fasting and low carb is the best way to increase this set point.

Essential

• Cut right down on sweet junk like choc, cake, biscuits etc. (Home made treats spike insulin just as much as mass-produced)
  Ideally cut it out. If not, try 2:5ing it - only allow on 2 days and only 1 portion treat per day (NOT 1 portion of each !)

• Be strict about carb portion sizes - max around 100g cooked weight of total starches per meal (e.g. 50 g pasta + 50 g bread)
  Ideally, go low carb most days.

• Keep to nhs alcohol guidelines

Possible Tactics

• Do Mosely's 5:2 BSD (Mediteranean low carb) This has 2 x 800 cal FDs, but daily low carb. Strict daily no added sugar, no starchy carbs, no booze day Only low sugar fruit, maximum 1-2 portions daily.

This form of low carb is healthy & supports insulin metabolism, because it encourages fish. beans, lentils, peas and plain Greek yoghurt.

His BSD is based on brilliant research by Prof Taylor into insulin metabolism and internal fat storage.

• Change to 3 x mini-FDs (up to 1000 cals) on Mon+Wed+Fri
  Minis instead of FDs can reduce hunger on NFDs too.
  It should give similar weight loss to standard 5:2, if you are able to

• Lose weight in 3 month chunks, to make life easier:
  Have a 5:2 maintenance period of 1 month between these 3 month periods - keep the weekly FDs, but eat up to TDEE

• mfp for a full week, for a reality check on portion size and to highlight any hidden calorie bombs.

Maz Having a baby can change the hormonal balance and increase the tendency to fat storage.
Often too, women who are pregnant, then BFing and baby-wrangling want carby food, especially sweet ones. In excess, this piles on weight and worsens insulin metabolism.

A very natural reaction to tiredness and it can be difficult to distinguish between stopping dieting (usually recommended in pregnancy) and over-indulging.

The above advice should work for you too, even if you didn't need these tactics pre-baby:
you are not exactly the same woman as before, so the old system won't work exactly the same

I'm very pleased with the way things are going. I've been getting lots of compliments this week.
It's this last half stone that seems to have made a real difference appearance wise (and wearing clothes that fit)

Hang in there clear you have done so well

FD 2 nearly done but really struggling. Am so tired, and have hormones and water retention and might have eaten a couple of the baby's biscuits. 3yo has just handed me a manky tea towel and ordered that I fashion it into an elaborate head dress and put it on my head.

I was going to do a workout this eve! Right now I can barely stand up, and it's nearly 2 hours to go before both of them are asleep.

Maybe I'll just go to bed with them?

Evening all, I had a massive night out at the end of last week with the consequence of throwing up my hands and giving myself the weekend 'off'. To make up for it I've done 2 FD and 2 mini FD so far this week with no problems at all.

I now know when all my get togethers/nights out (not many ) are so am going to plan my FD around these and actually put them in my diary as it will be a change to my usual 5:2 routine. I suggest you all do the same

Thanks all. Am determined to get back to losing steadily. Not giving up. Had a full on FD today so heading to bed now and will digest all the helpful advice fully tomorrow.

Hope you are tucked up in bed Eagle, manky turban and all! Bed time at the same time as children when knackered is the way to go imo.

Lovely to hear you are at the lots of compliments stage LadyC- enjoy!

Yes to planning for December five

I'm in bed but full of rice cakes, houmous, cereal bar and trifle

I just couldn't do it - and all that food tasted so damned good and I will rectify things over the next few days.

Let's blame it on totm, cold weather, post norovirus, and getting through another week with baby and preschooler mostly alone.

I'll repent with an upper body workout tomorrow!

I had my FD yesterday and I really struggled. I stuck to 500 calories but I felt weird all day, as if I was walking through treacle. Last night I developed a migraine so it all made sense! On the plus side I had another loss so I'm down 17.5lbs and I feel better today

Well done for getting through what sounds like a hideous FD Emison.

Clearskies you'll get there, the fact that you're here and talking through it is good as you'll be able to make changes and Bigchoc has once again given some excellent and fascinating insight into what's happening.

I had my second FD yesterday and am up extra early today (insomnia struck) - I'm resisting the urge to weigh myself until the normal time though.

Now that we're in December is this a good time to ask everyone their strategies for getting safely through Christmas?

Is it a good idea to do 4:3 the week before for example or is it better to keep to what your body is used to? Any tips/advice very gratefully received.

Checking in for NFD. Feeling in a much better head space now that I'm back to posting here and trying to work out the best strategy for progress.

Battle lines are drawn: It's homeostasis/regain weight/succumb to old habits vs a healthy happy rest of my life - the stakes are SO high
Never mind Eagle that's a whole lot of reasons for a difficult day to fast.
Pol main thing is to have a strategy for Xmas that's doable. I plan to be very very restrained due to all of the above

Have a good day everyone

Polpette I've been thinking about Christmas too! We have normal work and College hours up to the 23rd of December, so I'll be following the 5:2 way of eating up to then. As for the week between Christmas and New Year, I'm just not going to go too crazy but I will enjoy myself. I'm not a big drinker so one G&T will do me on Christmas Day and NYE. Then back to 5:2 from the day after NYD. That's the plan at this stage anyway

Hi all FD here, have had an awful week, spent Tuesday & Wednesday night in hospital with dd3 she had a full blown asthma attack, very very scary but the hospital sorted her out we got home yesterday, so food wasn't the best over the last few days as sleep was just non existent, crisps and toast was the main staples!! But I did manage a spin class last night after I got home and an early night so feeling up for a good FD today well done on all the great sv & non SV folks (lady c your rocking it!) well come Clear don't fret your in the right place now to get back on track you'll fly it 😉 Good luck Friday fasters

Oh no white how awful for you, glad that your DD is ok now. Such stamina to do a spin class!

I've decided to do another FD this week so I will toast you with a cup of black coffee bottoms up!

What a terrible time you had, WWW but you showed amazing focus & strength to manage your spin class and to go for today's planned FD.

Enjoy the compliments NSV, LadyC

All of us have the occasional crash out of an FD, EagleRay
However, if you are often finding FDs tough and especially with a babe, then standard 5:2 may be too stressful and I suggest trying the gentler 3 Minis alternative:

i.e. Mon+Wed+Fri within 1000 cals.
It also helps those finding NFDs tough - fewer NFDs, but without the bingeing risk of 4:3

Polpette 4:3 as Xmas prep helps some folk, but can send others off track:
4:3 is not sustainable for some, because it can start a starve / binge cycle.
If you have a problem controlling NFDs, a few weeks of 4:3 is risky.
If your NFDs are easily controlled, then 4:3 boosts weight loss.

Also, increasing fasting before Xmas can unconsciously give permission for a 2-week binge fest.

Suggested Tactics DURING Xmas

• Before you start the holiday, fix the date of your next FD after the hols - you can post it here
  The greatest danger is not 2 weeks break, but that you keep delaying resuming and return to your old WOE - that made you overweight.

• NO Snacking ever, especially evenings.

• Skip breakfast for daily 16:8 or 14:10 - Have say a double espresso.

• Drink water Start the day with a glass; keep glugging

• Keep alcohol moderate. Preferably nhs limits. At least alternate each glass with a glass of water

• Exercise At least a brisk daily walk.

• Examine your holiday plans and see if you can plan a weekly FD or miniFD