5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Successful FD today, even after a hard session at the gym first thing. Wasn't actually hungry till lunchtime, so 2 eggs on toast for lunch, and a tin of soup for supper. Kitchen closed, bath and bed for me before the munchies strike!

Collecting a new horse tomorrow so v v v excited and will have lots of distraction now to keep me out of the house and away from the fridge

Well done on your FD, CQ
Enjoy your gorgeous new horse tomorrow You'll have such fun getting to know each other and making sure he feels loved.

WhiteWinterWitch I was the one asking about odd period cycles, glad to hear it's not just me. Well done on your amazing progress.

CQ I am in awe of anyone that works out on a FD, hopefully I'll get there one day.

Today is my second FD of the week - aiming for 4:3 this week to try and break a plateau.

Oh and good luck with the new horse CQ ....I'm wondering if I can justify buying a horse as a valid weight loss excuse??

Hi it's Mazzle/FrazzleM here. I've temporarily name changed!

Since I've had a bad cold and had a couple of weekends away either side, I haven't fasted for a few weeks. FD yesterday and hopped on the scales this morning - no gain!

I've started using a childminder for the baby so that I can start exercising again. I now have time for a 30 min HIIT class and 1 hour with a PT. Love feeling my body ache again!

On the 21st of Dec. it'll be my 3 years since my very first fast! I love feeling in control of my eating throughout Dec. Of course I'll overindulge, but with some FD thrown in I'll be fine. Why wait until January for the health kick?

Fasting again tomorrow. Anyone else on a Thursday FD this week?

Nice to see you again, MrsM < peers under new lid >
Well done on maintaining and I hope your snuffles are totally gone.

In the runup to the long Christmas / New Year eatfest, it's useful for maintainers to aim for lower end of their Happy Weight. So you start the New Year on track, or with only a little to lose.

Lots of good stuff going on on the thread, nice to see.

We've just spent a few days with my 3yr-old GS and family - and I've returned home with a cold that's laid me low for a few days. Felt so sorry for myself last night that I raided the stash on top of the cupboard - and ate 7 digestives and 3 squares of chocolate. Ah, well, when those biccies are all gone, they won't be replaced.

How nice to see you again, Maz! Glad to see everything is still on an even keel!

I love feeling in control of my eating throughout Dec. Of course I'll overindulge, but with some FD thrown in I'll be fine. Why wait until January for the health kick?

Exactly my thoughts. Pre 5:2 I used to gain over Christmas and it would take until Easter to get rid of the extra weight. Now, with the judicious use of lots of 16:8 and the odd FD I can indulge and still not put on any weight. Been the same over Christmas for 4 years, now!

Interesting to see other people have had changes to their cycle too - I'm now 33 days a month on average, having always been 27 days. I'm finding it difficult because of the increase/length of pmt symptoms. I'm down to 9 stone, and my target is 8 and a half. This cold weather means I'm eating a lot of home made carrot and lentil soup, on FDs and NFDS which seems to be boosting weight loss.

The exercise posts here are very encouraging, I definitely feel I have more energy having lost weight. I've started to cycle more and keep saying to myself that I'll re-start the 30 day shred.

Mootime - your post really resonated with how I was feeling in July. Losing/putting on and the difficult feelings that brings up. You can do this - there's so much support on this thread and the previous threads to turn to when you're tempted to eat/give up. This way of eating seems to really work. I was almost 11 and a half stone (at 5"1.5) and I felt really down at the prospect of approaching 40 being so overweight. Somehow, (with the help of a year of psychotherapy to work through a complicated childhood and difficult relationship with my mother) I've kept at it and have lost almost 2 and a half stone. I have the fear that I'll self sabotage and put it back on but I keep reading bigchoc's advice on maintaining.

Good luck to those fasting today.

Thanks for all of your kind words. I'm having a FD today and have managed to do a work lunch with a cabildo Nero and anchovy salad. I've made the shift back to almond milk too which immediately reduces my carbs and cals...

I'm basically going to try a to do 5:2 version of the blood sugar diet. I was going to try to do the full 800 cals every day but Bigchoc you are right, this tends to leave me over eating on the few NFDs I give myself or breaking down entirely!

I do need to up my water and steps as well.

Hi all, hope your all getting on good with Wednesday fasting, it's a nfd for me and I've just closed the kitchen and stayed within TDEE (even managed a hobnob with some Nutella on it for desert, so your not alone breadandwine) thought it best to add it in instead of having a binge later on. Thanks for all the support folks, Alyosha you'll be reporting of the same stats soon I've no doubt. Hi Mootime nice to see you, like everyone else had said no need to be hard on yourself we're all only human and it's hard keeping everything going (this is my 3rd time loosing this weight but I'm determined this is my last ) main thing is we have the tools now on how to do it so let's keep chipping away, well done on your FD. breadandwine I checked out your pirate yesterday wow he's a real cutie, my dds used to love dressing up as pirates too, we're all big Jack Sparrow fans in this house so good to read people's stories too of how they're maintaining that's a great insight into what to do next. CQ hope your new horse is gorgeous and have lots of fun I did laugh polpette at your post. Hi MrsS&M I'll be joining you for a FD tomorrow too and yes agree loving the ach that comes from a good workout, did a spin class this morning and it was tough going but I felt so good afterwards, I did tricep dips in class on Monday night and I can still feel those today ouch! See you all tomorrow

Ohh and hope you & your Dd are feeling better again eagleray and your pizza stayed down well done on your losses too that's fantastic going....

Ok, so slightly fell off the wagon at kids tea time. Babybell and a handful of almonds followed by a bit more cheese. But it's all low carb, I just need to eat a smaller supper.
I'm out at a PTA meeting in the pub tonight so will be drinking sparking water ( or Diet Coke)

Brilliant SV, Onwego
Don't worry, when you get to goal weight, we'll sort out a longterm maintenance plan that suits. So, sing out when you get there
You too, WWW This time, you will ease into your lifetime WOE and stay where you want to be.

Good luck on your 1st FD back, Moo and good luck too to Polpette and all the other Wednesday fasters. Nearly there.

I have the same strategy as you, B&W: aiming to maintain over the holidays so I start each NY exactly where I want to be.
Even more important post-meno (not exactly a problem for you !) when regain is much faster and losing weight much slower

Anyone wanting to start exercise on FDs:
very short bursts of intense exercise are the easiest, because the body is better able to access fat for fuel.

I recommend starting with Mosely's Fat Blasts, which just take a few minutes, see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP

Actually I totally forgot to post what I came on to say! I did my FD yesterday and was doing great until disaster struck i made an omelette with lots of lovely vegetables and when putting onto my plate I missed and the whole thing ended up on the floor but thankfully I was able to dig out a frozen meal from the fridge so lesson learned will stock up on a few low cal frozen meals in case of disaster striking again!! Finished on 520 calories so no harm done

Crikey, culinary catastrophe, WWW
I've learned not to toss pancakes, but my problem is the opposite: scraping them off the ceiling

Morning Everyone
FD today, I need to get back into the habit of checking in here again.
In good news I've passed the first 2 modules of my college course and had a fantastic observation day yesterday. I'm also averaging 5.5miles a day and religiously drinking 2l of water a day.
The bad news is that I need to buy new jeans again I'm spending all day pulling them up but I hate shopping

Hi all! I've just finished my first months worth of FDs and have lost about 8 pounds in total I think. Hopefully means I'm still on track to have lost the stone I need to lose by Christmas!

I am struggling a bit on NFDs so think weight loss could have been a lot quicker. Not necessarily because I'm binging, but because there have been so many birthdays and meals out recently, that I'm sure I've been going well over my TDEE when I eat out. Any recommendations for choosing more wisely from the menu?! It just all looks so tempting!

The other thing I was going to ask was whether you tend to weigh yourself once a week, or daily? I've been weighing daily but my weight seems to fluctuate so wildly that I'm struggling to work out if I'm actually making any progress?

LadyCatherine great news on the jeans - I'm just notching my belt tighter and hoping I can shrink my jeans in the wash, also hate shopping, especially for jeans

Clover great weight loss - I weigh most days so I can give myself a quick kick up the bum if things move in the wrong direction - too much can go wrong in a week. It does fluctuate - but not all the way back up to my starting point so the trend is definitely in the right direction. There's a good app called TrueWeight which calculates your actual weight so you can see the pattern as well as the fluctuations.

Hi everyone! I have a scale victory to report!
I have lost 3.2 kilograms since beginning with this WOL! I snack a bit less (working on it) and my sweet tooth is easier to deal with. Thanks to everyone especially BigChoc :) and good luck all fasters today.

Cl0ver You need to look at the trend over 2-3 weeks, to smooth out blips - weight varies naturally a few lb : undigested food, hormonal swings, differing amounts of retained water ....

For regular monitoring, I suggest weighing weekly the morning after the 2nd FD
However, many folk also find daily weighing useful, to keep in the swing. Just don't get worried by temporary blips

Clothes fit are the most reliable guide - you should see a difference every few weeks.
You can also monitor waist measurement (narrowest point) because this is a good indicator of visceral (internal organ) fat

Congrats on your jeans NSV, LadyC also on the water and exercise healthy NSVs
Contrats on passing your modules too

< oops sorry, LadyC that sounded quite painful once I posted ! >

Congrats on your SV, Cecile and on your progress cutting out snacks between meals.
Try to have any sweet treat or alcohol as part of a meal and then go at least 4 hrs without calories u til the next meal.
Even a "healthy snack" of fruit or veg chunks is better as say starter or final course of a meal.

Well done on your jeans NSV too, CQ Tumble dry might help them shrink.

Tip to feel fuller:
Try adding a small first course - without bread - of either
. green salad with a little lemon / balsamico / vinaigrette dressing - avoid creamy dressings, croutons, cheese
. broth / soup - avoid noodles, potato etc

Well done Cecile! Great news.

Re: everyone's cycles, I'm planning to start TTC in about 2 years, does fasting affect fertility? I'm on the pill at the moment so just have withdrawal bleeds.

FD today, planning on one of those (way too expensive) "protein pots" from Pret or a Nicoise salad. BigChoc you were right, it is much easier to stay on the wagon on NFD if you eat a bit on FDs. Frustrated I have wasted about 3 months...