5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

This is all really interesting! I will need some time to read, digest and make sense of it, but it seems pretty logical on a first reading.
Taubes was also atrociously wrong about anorexia, I have several friends and relatives who are sufferers unfortunately and what he wrote about that was really very wrong.

Morning all

Today will be just about a FD, forgot I'm meeting a friend for lunch. So will have my meal at lunchtime, have looked on the menu and worked out what I'm having which is 730 cals... not great but not too bad as an easing back into fasting.

Thursday will be a proper fast day!

Stripey - good luck with the teeth, hope it goes ok!

Good luck to all those fasting today!

Hi all back again, smaller washing and kit sorting mountain to deal with than last time and sun is blazing which means everything will be dry by tonight.

Back straight into FD1 of week, delayed by BH. Feeling very focussed, still a bit daunted about how far as I still have to go and how much I need to keep working on old (over)eating habits trying to creep back in. Term time I now realize is a whole lot easier than the long summer holiday where routines are out the window. Daunted but determined

Hello friends!

My first day today and first timer. Doing this with my dh as we both want to get healthy. I'm impressed he's on board as he's usually a real scoffer when it comes to diets. He loves Michael Mosley though!

Feeling SO tired and wanted to ask: those of you with small children, how do you cope with sleepless nights (and morning-after hunger)? (We could reschedule FDs I guess... But most nights are bad for us.)

I'm also premenstrual and very migrainy but managing so far :-)

I also wanted to ask, how do you manage to keep the whole thing off your kids' radar? I don't really want ds1 to hear a load of stuff about calorie counting as he can get very obsessive about rules (he's 4) and could not stop talking about healthy eating when they covered it at nursery!

Hello everyone! Wanting some advice please. Before the school holidays was managing to cut right down on some days (not quite 500 calories ) and 16:8 other days and managed to lose half a stone. Also exercising too. Since school holidays, been hard to fast and exercise also hubby currently working Monday to Friday for a Month, he normally does shifts. I normally do an exercise class in the morning and have started jogging. I'm thinking I wouldn't be able to do exercise in the morning without eating anything, what do other people do when it comes to exercise? Feel I would faint if I didn't have anything to eat! Thanks x

Hello Monkey!

I have a 3yo and to be honest he doesn't notice that I am eating different from him, mind you I do my FDs at work so the only meal we'll eat together those days is tea and we do eat similar, I'll just have more veg/little carbs along with whatever protein we're having. He'll have lots of carbs and hardly any veg! Try and keep talk of calories to when he's in bed maybe? Don't know if that's an option. When it comes to rubbish nights I gauge how I feel in the morning and move my FD if I need to, I did this today! Sometimes I'm OK after a little sleep and sometimes I am not.

Planet, BigChoc is the person to ask about exercise, she is a right gym bunny! I don't exercise in the morning but I do exercise on FDs and have found having a double shot of coffee before I go has help perk me right upand it also helps your body burn your fat stores (if I remember correctly). Could always ask on the exericse thread too for better advice.

Countess I'm really enjoying reading that lecture. We did a lot on diabetes when I was studying it at undergrad level, I wish he had written that a few years earlier...

Hello everyone, can I creep back in please? Have had a horrible couple of months that ended with a holiday I got back from on Sunday and I'm back on 5:2 today.

I'd managed to loose 24lbs between Feb and June and when I weighed just before holiday I'd only put 2lbs back on not been brave enough to weigh since getting back though I really enjoyed 5:2 but got sidetracked, back posting on these threads for motivation. First calorie counted day today in a LONG time and FD planned for tomorrow. Wish me luck 😁

Good luck :D

Thanks Jings, any advice is welcome, will try a strong coffee in the morning!

Welcome, Monkey
I suggest if DC see you measuring your meals, that you say you are following a recipe to make the meal fit your preferred taste combination.

Well done on your SV, Planet
Most people who have got used to exercising and fasting separately can combine them. Others find they can't exercise properly on an FD. Just try and see what suits.

FD exercise:

• At first keep it to maximum 1 hr. I've built up to 2 hrs lifting & walk, but that took several months
• Fasted morning training is ok for most folk, but then (personally) I divide my cals into lunch & supper
• For afternoon / evening training, I also habe lunch & supper
• Glug down a black unsweetened double espresso 10 mins before you start, to help mobilise fat stores for fuel (It doesn't have to taste great; you are drinking it for a purpose)
• HIIT and / or lifting work very well on FDs, because the intensity seems to better extract bodyfat for fuel
• Avoid medium intensity cardio like medium-paced swimming or running. It tends to increase hunger and many folk find it difficult to obtain enough fuel from bodyfat. If you want to do cardio, do a short intense session, fast oace and / or sprint intervals.

==> If you find FD exercise too tough right now, just aim for 10k steps during the day.

Welcome back, need and good luck for your FD tomorrow
I suggest in the morning you weigh and also measure waist & hips, so you have a baseline and can monitor your progress (monthly if you prefer)

You did very well before your pause and achieved an excellent SV
So, just get back in the fasting swing, lose those odd lb that crept on while you weren't looking and you can march towards your goals.

Good luck with your teeth op Stripey and enjoy your hols.
That's a very good policy, to resume FDs right afterwards - we recommend this or otherwise a holiday can turn into a few months off track.

Olive For health reasons, I recommend everyone try to limit sugary / carby junk food to occasional treats, say 2:5 them - one portion on 2 NFDs per week - and also to stay within nhs alcohol guidelines.

Junk & excess booze is bad for your liver, your waist, visceral fat, health risks
(but you can ignore me !)

However, unless you are insulin-resistant, you don't need to low carb - many people can get lean and stay there while including sensible portions of root veg (potatoes, sweet pots, parsnips) or minimally processed whole grains.

Portion size: iirc, total starchy carbs for a meal should be about 80g uncooked rice / pasta OR 1-2 medium slices bread OR 100g boiled / baked potatoes.
If you combine 2 carbs, then have half-portions.
Also, watch portion size for creamy / oily sauces and avoid deep-frying

Eat beans & lentils, masses of non-starchy veg, but keep fruit to within 2 portions per day (Mosely's advice for everyone)

Thank you BigChoc for the detailed advice. I'm doing a half hour cardio class tomorrow morning so will have a coffee tomorrow before and see how it goes!

Thanks big choc, gone to bed around 370 cals under tdee and NO alcohol first dry day in a long while! FD tomorrow which I'm almost looking forward to

Good luck any fellow weds fasters

Welcome newcomers monkey and planetearth and good luck with getting healthier with us all on this thread!

Hi do good to see you back and good luck with getting back into the 5:2 way. You know it works
Hope it goes OK stripey and glad to hear no more pain MrD

Lovely FD here, friends nibbling away/grazing all day but felt fine just sticking with my planned food and alot of water.

Well done on a healthy, disciplined day with your FD, clear and your NFD, need

Let us know how you get on with your fasted training tomorrow, Planet

If anyone wants to check if they have a carb addiction / possible pre-T2, take Mosely's Quiz
(I just did and scored 0-3 = "No. You can take it or leave it when it comes to eating carbs and probably have a fairly healthy attitude towards food.")

Mosely has a very clear explanation of metabolic syndrome & insulin resistance

Just heading to bed after a 1000 kcal (BFing) fast day. Found today relatively easy and just kept myself distracted and busy.

monkeymamma, I tend to avoid mentioning anything about fasting to the DC. I have a normal looking dinner, with lots more veg and fewer carbs generally, but especially on FDs so I am not sure that they even notice.

Hello all! I've been very impressed by reading all your efforts so thought I'd try 5:2 as I've cut down on food in similar ways before but not quite so formally as exactly 5:2. Today was my first FD - had nothing but coffee, water and lots of green tea until dinner, then sea bass with green beans and asparagus with garlic followed by melon with a very small handful of almonds. Not sure exact calories but fewer than 500 I hope...the difficult thing has been no glass of wine at night!

Looking forward to making progress with you all! Would like to lose 10 lbs but even half a stone would be good. Also doing Shred as often as I can (probably not often enough!)

Morning all
Welcome, Aracena and well done on your 1st FD
Well done on your 1st FD too, Countess

For FD meals with family:
I recommend a menu where the starchy carbs and any oily / creamy sauce are in separate dishes to the protein.
So avoid e.g. spag bol or fish pie that night.

A roast is easy:
You have lean meat and at least 3 veg, e.g. peas, carrots, red cabbage, horseradish / mint sauce.
The family add potato, Yorskshire / parsnips, gravy

Easy to tell the DCs you wanted to enjoy the lovely veg and you may even encourage them

Quick update before kids are up.
7lb down this week
1 inch off waist
1inch off underbust and
2 inchs off actual bust measurement. My boobs are finally going. The end of backache is in sight.
All other measurements stayed the same.

Yayyyyyyyy olive that's completely BRILLIANT!!!! You must be feeling well chuffed! Just a casual 'quick update before the kids are up' and there's missing inches all over the place!!!!

Well done and it's going to inspire me in focussing on my healthy-wholefood-no-snacking-3-meals NFD today

Welcome aracena and good luck on your 5:2 journey

Have a healthy FD or NFD everyone and keep drinking (that water)

Hello clear just read back through the thread, wow 50lbs down is amazeballs well done....

It feels good to be back, first FD today, I'm working from home so I need to stay away from the fridge!!! Good luck everyone else

Wow olive 7lbs is fantastic