5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Saturday FD, as I'm v busy today, gives me lots of extra time.
I've cycled everywhere and finished my errands, then spin class and just finished tidying my cellar swept up dead rats & cobwebs
I'm waiting for the Cuisinard to finish my protein shake - I'm having it as strawberry ice cream, with a dash of tangerine Omega Swirl. I enjoy luxurious FDs

Sounds like a delicious FD BigChoc

I'm getting ready for my 11 mile walk today with a walking group for the first time. I really hope I enjoy it as then I can have some company for my walks sometimes!

I survived the shopping trip and came home nearly £300 lighter. All 3 needed shoes and trainers and both boys needed football boots. DD will need bloody tap shoes and ballet shoes too😤

Ouch, olive but you got a good deal.

I hope your walk went well, MrD Exercise outside is so much more enjoyable with friendly companions.

Ouch Olive - but its done now!

Just home from walk, it was fab, couple of hills and I sweated buckets classy but had a good time and would go again maybe!

Glad your walk was good, MrD. Walking is great, with friendly company even better. I used to live on one end of the thames and work near the other in the city. LOVED my 4mile walk into work I would do it rain or shine! Set me up for a good day with fresh air in my lungs and brain.

I need a little pick me up. My DH's family are all from extremely (naturally) lean stock...extremely athletic and fast metabolism-type bodies. They are also all medical in some capacity (doctors, physios, dentists, etc) and so interested in science and research etc. His most vocal brother is a doctor who is a Banting specialist (used to run various diabetes/weight loss clinics and now has a private Banting consultancy sort of situation. At a big family gathering today, LCHF was literally all that was spoken about, as (due to his evangelism) the parents and sister have also started up NoC HF. He had brought all his ketosis kit and everyone was getting their measurements taken and breath testing for ketosis levels sort of for fun.

Anyway. This long ramble is to say that, after alllllllll my effort, all my commitment to fasts, low carb Med, exercise (I went for a run at 5am!!!) telling myself that the final 3/4/5kgs isn't shifting because of ebf...I was the ONLY ONE NOT IN KETOSIS! Even my DH who isn't doing anything out of the ordinary. Even my SIL, whose baby is only 2 months older than mine...has a body fat % of 18!

Sigh. I am feeling a) Fat b) disheartened c) like I want to cut my nose to stuff my face with chocolate brownies (that's a saying, right?!) and d) SO bored of obsessive talk of food!! I am a foodie. I love to cook. I have really relished cooking on a creative low cal LCMed diet. And I love this WOL. But SERIOUSLY. I want my daughters growing up with a healthy relationship with food and their bodies, to understand that we have strong arms for hard work and big cuddles, strong legs for standing up for people and keeping going even when we are tired, feeling a little bit hungry to remember that lots of people don't have any food at all, to know that food doesn't control them. BUT. Saying all that, in my heart of hearts, I want to get back to my pre-preg weight and shape and am vainly gutted about my kangaroo mummy-paunch.

Pity party over. Sorry. Just needed to get it out their as DH doesn't remotely understand although he tries and I don't like to chat about it IRL as other people's diets are boring

Well done, MrD Sounds like that walking group are keepers

GardenGirl I avoid fanatics on any subject; I once rebooked a flight to avoid a born-again religious cousin. Being born once suffices for me.

As for measuring and testing at a family gathering !
Dreadful. Really odd - and intrusive - to check each others' body fat & ketosis status
I hope the DCs didn't observe all this obsession about fat.

I know it's easy to say, but do try not to compare your body to others, especially ILs
So many people, especially women, feel pressured to have a certain appearance - shape, hair, nails, clothes, makeup to hide wrinkles or supposed blemishes .... So superficial.

Be proud of yourself:
You are eating nutritious food; you are within, or getting towards, a healthy BMI; you take plenty of exercise.
Your particular body may take longer to recover from birth and surrender its bodyfat reserves.
A lot of that is genetic, as is where your body stores its fat
Just keep on with your WOL and you'll achieve your goals at a rate that is safe for your body and that fits in with your life.

Most people who are not insulin-resistant can eat starchy carbs in sensible amounts, especially complex ones.
This is totally different to sugary / carby junk food (& booze), which are responsible for so much obesity.
The Mediteranean diet is at least as healthy as LCHF for this majority, as has been proved by extensive research.
You won't ruin your health with an occasional brownie either.
It is certainly not necessary for the whole population to be in ketosis all the time.

btw, ketosis usually requires a diet based mainly on animal protein, which our planet cannot provide for anything like the whole population. Probably half of even the UK population couldn't afford this for their families.

Your OH's family sound obsessive.
Smile and ignore.

btw, growing up in the 1950s and 1960s when almost noone under 35 was overweight: I can say it wasn't because of low carbing !
We ate masses of potatoes & bread because meat was so expensive.
Far less veg and fruit too, before supermarkets and cheap food imports - about 2 per day for most of us, not 5.

The obesity epidemic is mainly because of:
constant snacking, junk food everywhere, the sheer volume of high cal fast food & ready meals that we can now afford to buy, also electronic gadgets for hours of sedentary entertainment.

He dipped everyone's wee at a family party!?

Sorry just say it was breath test

Who takes these things to a family gathering where you're supposed to be relaxing and enjoying yourself? I feel for you Garden that's really not on.

Yet another failed potty training weekend for me, DS is just being stubborn but he won't even sit on the bloody thing or on the toilet seat even though he can tell you when he's going - grr. It is really getting me down and had 2 glasses of wine last night because of it. But it's a new day today so dusting myself off for a FD!

Hello to all other fasters today

Jing nothing, not the sleepless nights, tantrums, nothing, has taken me to the edge of sanity like potty training did! Rest(room) assured, it will pass. Excuse the puns.

Thanks for the reassurance that it is odd (olive, it was just a breath test and number crunching...no wee! That would have been ultra weird) BigChoc, the DCs were my big concern too. As I've said before, I really try to emphasise health over size (My BMI is low but I am very small framed, with a genetic disposition to TOFI waist fat) to my girls and have always explained why they don't get choc/cake/junk in terms of healthy strong bodies. I guess just resented being made to feel like I was irresponsible for giving them mange tout and carrots as they are high carb!

Clear how's your headspace?

PS lovely sunny FD here. So looking forward to it. Lovely walk planned with my DH and DCs, blackberry picking and then all making dinner together. Can't wait. Plus, just opened a new bag of local roasted coffee -- my favourite treat

BCF sorry to drag you back to an earlier post but that is really interesting to me - have you read Gary Taubes' work? Because I am a very gullible and impressionable person and it sounded very credible to me - I do have a slight tendency to read assertive pronouncements and just swallow them sometimes (I stress, sometimes). Do you think it is the frequency rather than the content of eating, then?

Can I join in for some encouragement?

I've done 5:2 very successfully in the past between babies. I was pretty unwell in pregnancy so put on about 25kg (I was almost 90kg the day before he was born).

DC is now 3 months old and I've been doing a 1000 kcal fast 5:2 since he was about 8 weeks old. Prior to my holiday away a fortnight ago, I'd lost 15kg (33 lbs, looks more impressive that way!) relatively easily and was really enjoying it.

I didn't do 5:2 fasting on holiday but weight stayed nicely stable. However, despite getting back to fasting in the last week or so, my weight has remained stable with no weight loss at all.

Reading that does make me realise that I need to get a grip and remember it is just a week, but I feel unreasonably annoyed and discouraged by it all (yes, IABU!) and am making poorer choices as a result.

So, I want to check in with people and say that tomorrow will be a FD!

Welcome, Countess, congrats on your baby and that very impressive 15 kg SV
You did well to maintain during your vacation, but it probably took you out of fat-burning mode, hence why your weight loss is paused. So, it can take a week or two to get back on track.
Also, you may still be in holiday mode wrt portion size or more indulgent kinds of food.

If you are sure you are eating exactly as you did pre-holiday, then you may have a temporary plateau, very common after a big chunk of weight loss: your body needs time to rebalance and get used to its new size.
Just be patient, keep to the WOE and you should see progress

Evening all

Increased water and 16:8 is going well, am ready for a FD tomorrow again I think. No longer needing painkillers from the dental work ( and haven't for a few days) so think I'm good. Plus the DC are at a sports camp, so I'm going to work through lunch and just have my cals for an evening meal.

Welcome Countess - sounds like you're off to a great start!

Gardengirl - that party sounds... erm ... delightful! Of course you are right to be encouraging healthy eating over extremes!

Children should NOT be put on a lowcarb diet (or on a fasting diet either) unless this is recommended for a medical condition by their own doctor
Extraordinary to prevent kids from eating carrots or mange tout, unless it is to move these foods from snacks to part of main meals.

Celeste On a low-carb diet your body burns fat for energy.
However, it doesn’t care where this fat comes from; it can come from the diet or it can come from the fat cells or it can come from both.

If you are consuming enough fat to meet all your body’s requirements, your body won’t burn the fat in the fat cells no matter how severely you restrict your carbs
This is why some low carbers don't lose, or stop losing before goal weight.

For those with insulin resistance, especially pre-T2 / T2, I recommend low carb, especially Mosely's healthy low carb Mediteranean with beans, lentils, peas & yoghurt.
Low fat is a bad idea for such people.

For those without insulin resistance, the main benefit of low carb is cutting out all the sugary crap & junk carbs, which are calorie bombs deliberately developed to target taste buds.
For these people, calories are really dominant.

People until about 1975 did not exceed the recommended daily portion sizes of protein, carbs, fat (but they never thought about it)
Most folk nowadays are astonished when they realise the portion size they should be eating.

The obesity epidemic has been caused by the over-abundance of calories since the 1970s, together with the highly processed junk form in which most of these have been added.
Snacks are usually very junky and boost the calories people consume daily.
Increased alcohol consumption is also a major factor for adults.

It is unique in human history that the entire population, not just a tiny number of rich people, can access far more calories than their body can burn.

Food manufacturers keep denying this, but independent research proves many people under-estimate their intake by 50% or more.
Studies on obese people who couldn't lose on 1,000 cals daily found they were in fact averaging over 2,000 cals, some even over 3,000 cals.

Gary Taubes: I bought his book when it first came out
(I've about 40 books on low carb or fasting and I've read maybe 200 papers by scientists, not journalists)

He did useful work bringing together existing research, but then spoiled it all by

• Making a couple of notorious science howlers when he misunderstood some papers and wrongly criticised some well-respected scientists
• Claiming non-junk starchy carbs as the enemy for everyone, whereas they are very healthy for some

I recommend more reliable low carb authors, e.g.:

• Mosely's low carb BSD book is excellent. He combines the best 2 diets (based on research) for blood sugar management: LC & Mediteranean.
  His BSD is based on the

• Jeff Volek is a respected scientist who has done genuine research and written several sensible balanced articles on low carb.
  He took over after Atkins died and now writes the Atkins Diet books.

• Dr Mike Eades who developed the Protein Power Diet

Oops, meant to add Mosely's BSD is based on the brilliant research by Prof Taylor (Newcastle Uni) who won the Diabetes UK Banting prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis to explain the cause of T2:
Memorial Lecture

Thanks for the welcome (and gentle administration of grips)!

Here's the right link to Roy Taylor's lecture:

www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/documents/BantingDiabeticMed.pdf

He is a legend.

Can I also recommend stuff by Prof Sir Steve O'Rahilly in Cambridge?

used to work for him and think he is great

Morning all. Tuesday FD here again.
Will follow the links later. I'm from a farming back ground and will need a lot of convincing to get over many years of ketosis = twin lamb disease = very bad often fatal

Hey, just checking in as its been a little while. Last week wasn't great I only did 1 FD.

I had good intentions twice to fast but fell off the wagon twice so not great.

I'm going to give it my all this week as I'm going on holiday Saturday all inclusive and straight back on when I come home.

I'm not overly worried about the holiday as I'm actually going away to have cosmetic surgery on my teeth. As I'm a wimp I have booked in for general anesthetic so I need to fast before hand and due to time of appointment I will only be having tea on one of the days with no alcohol. Plus eating again is going to be a new experience.

Successful FD yesterday and aiming for another tomorrow.

Morning all and hello Countess - 15kg loss is great!

Changing it up today, FD yesterday turned into a mini FD because I was a carb beast and ate 2 slices of bread and butter. Then a rubbish night sleep last night made me wake up tired and ravenous so no FD today either. So Thurs and Sat to be my FDs this week, I've never done a FD at the weekend before, eek. Had an omelette for breakfast and feel so much better for it so just going to be sensible today, glug glug glug water, MFP and enjoy my exercise class tonight.

Good luck to everyone today