5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Wowser Olive 7 lbs is amazing! Well done, you should be proud.

Hello again Do, it is daunting coming back after a time away I did the same and was really annoyed at myself for stopping 5:2 and putting on weight again. I put on 6 lbs after 2 months off but that's gone now and starting to lose new lbs.

4am start today and have had a cup of tea with sugar. Didn't really taste much better than tea with stevia so will stick to stevia now.

Good luck to all fasters and non-fasters today

Thanks everyone I'm not sure what happened this week.

thanks jing it is annoying isn't it, i did as BCF suggested this morning and i've put on 3lbs since being 'off' 5:2, i think i've managed that as i've kept to not eating breakfast mainly, so it could have been A LOT worse - phew!!!

I think i got my original loss wrong though, so it was 22lbs overall and not 24lbs (now 19lb until i get this 3lb gain off) i need to lose at least that amount again, if not a little more, so i've a long battle ahead!

Morning faster, my name is Persis and I lost loads with 5:2 earlier in the year. I'm maintaining reasonably well with 5:2 lite (2x 500 cal fasts and then 3 sensible days and 2 less sensible) but I'm getting a bit bored on my FD and fancied some company!! Sooooo here I am! FD yesterday and I am STARVING now but only coffee and water til lunch....but my work canteen does lovely lovely food on Wednesdays so it'll be worth the wait!

Good luck to Wednesday fasters!

Wow, Olive What a brilliant week, especially at this stage of your WOL - a big SV and inches NSV galore

< waves to Persis > Our thread should keep you entertained and on track

Clear To boost fat-burning, I recommend you boost protein (fish is excellent) and check you aren't exceeding carb portion size (around 80g uncooked weight)
Try to keep within 2 portions fruit per day, also avoid fruit juice & dried fruit for now.
For your smaller bod, did you remember to recalculate TDEE and mfp at least a typical day, to retrain yourself in portion size ?

You did very well just adding 3 lb in your long break, need You obviously kept good habits

Reminder to everyone:
If you return to your old WOE, you'll return to your old waist & weight

Don't rely on good intentions; choose a definite maintenance plan - we can help you choose something to fit your lifestyle

Hi all. I'm restarting 5:2 today after 1 year of failed attempts to lose weight. I'm exactly the same weight now as when I started a year ago and 3 stone more than when I got pregnant 3 years ago. In some ways, I'm ashamed about having put so much weight on, but I have had PND which resulted in overeating/binging a lot, so I'm not beating myself up over it too much. But I'm better now, and ready to concentrate on losing my extra 3 stone.

My plan is FDs on mondays and wednesdays (both of which are days at work) and strict TDEE other 5 days. Exercise-wise I don't do much, although try for 2 gentle jogs a week which I enjoy but don't think it does much for weight loss.

Oooh I like a Monday Wednesday fast too! We can be buddies!

And PND is a menace, in so many ways. Well done for getting through it intact 😘

Welcome, Knowler and good luck
We don't do shame here - scales measure weight, not moral value
You are doing really well after your illness to get on the fasting wagon

Take it gently and concentrate on food that will nourish your body and build up your health again.
You could even ease into fasting with mini-FDs (sub-1000) instead of FDs, if you prefer.
If a day doesn't go to plan, just learn from it and move on, no beating yourself up.
Don't worry about temporary blips - weight naturally varies a bit, day to day

Post whenever you'd like some support, or to say how you are doing.
I recommend a short daily walk in good weather, on your non-jogging days. It's relaxing

Hi all, I have been reading this thread for the last 3 weeks. This is my third week of 5:2. I have never done it before, I have always been a weightwatchers girl but since they have changed their system again, I decided to try something new. Plus someone I know lost 3 stone doing 5:2 so I did lots of reading and decided that it might actually be something I can maintain indefinitely. I am not massively overweight, I have a bmi of 27 but my youngest DS is nearly 17 months and I would like to shift a stone before ttc no 3.

I do a Tuesday/Thursday FD when I am at work (apart from this week when I am doing back to back FDs Wednesday and Thursday

My first week I lost 4lbs, last week (my second week) I stayed the same and this week well who knows!

I decided that on top of my FDs I would also try and do 16:8 on the two NFDs after my FDs and also on the other weekday NFD. I have a tendancy to eat more at the weekends and so I can be stricter during the week.

I did calculate my TDEE at around 1700 (I put sedentary because I have a desk job but I do run around after two toddlers and walk a few miles a week) but I am trying not to be too strict in calorie counting at this stage. I am just trying to make a few sensible choices during the week and not really monitor what I am eating at the weekend. This will then give me somewhere to go if the weight doesn't shift or I plateau.

I do love my food and have a penchant for ice cream and takeaways, I do want to try and be able to incorporate some nice things into my week to enable me to maintain this WOE. I have however made a real concerted effort to cut out snacks.

I don't know if what I am doing will work (after staying the same last week), I may have to review things. I am going to try and increase my awareness of real calories though and try and mfp once or twice a week.

Anyways, I just thought I would introduce myself, I have been reading about you all these past few weeks and its lovely to see so much support. I watched the Horizon documentary with my DH last night so that gave me a bit more determination.

I have found it good doing the FDs as it gets rid of bloat and uncomfortableness, it almost makes me feel more energised.

My exercise is seriously lacking, I have my excuses including two toddlers, work etc but the truth is that my kids don't sleep well and I am always so tired. I hope things will change soon but in the meantime I am just going to keep doing the family walks at the weekend and hope for the best.

Nice to "meet" you all

Greetings Maclairey and nice to meet you too :) congratulations on sticking it out for three weeks. I'm sure our resident experts will be along with helpful advice soon, but until then don't be discouraged by a week of no loss - things like fluid shifts and poo (sorry) can make your weight descend stepwise rather than linearly.

Hi all,
I'm back from my holiday. 0.7 lbs lighter than when I went! I planned 2 FDs for the holiday that didn't happen. I was careful what I ate though, I didn't count calories but probably didn't reach my TDEE most days as was scared to eat.
I missed breakfast or had a tiny one most days, avoided carbs but not high fat, saved calories during the day if we went for a meal out, had no more than 1 dessert a day, had no more than 1 high calorie drink a day, limited the amount of alcohol on the days I was drinking to 2 drinks, swapped juice for water and avoided snacking.
Off to read everything I missed while away. Good luck to everyone fasting today!

Hi all!

I've read most of the thread and just wanted to pop in on my very first fast day...

Feeling the pain abit now !

So far I've had :

A very late breakfast/lunch : two boiled eggs, cup of tea

Lunch: Apple

I've just made a cup of tea and am trying to delay dinner because I tend to graze in the evenings. It doesn't help having a slim, athletic Dh who can snack on whatever the hell he wants and stays in shape

Anyway! It was very interesting following some of the links in the opening post. I worked out my body frame size and it's small. I then worked out my ideal weight calculator and it's between 8.5-9.5 stones , and I'm 5'6 that came as a bit of a shock as I'm currently 10 stones and my bmi is within the healthy range , apparently ! All very confusing, but I have been 9.5 and it's when I feel my best with my body so that's what I'm aiming for.

To those of you who have been doing this for a while, how much weight can one expect to lose a week/month? Also, any ideas on low calorie snacks would be very helpful thank you

Thanks for the welcome. Today has gone well, I've ended up at about 700 cals for the day which I'm satisfied with for my first day. I saved it all for this evening and probably went a bit mad but I know now to plan ahead and have my dinner prepared in advance so I don't end up eating more than intended. Onwards 😃

Wow wiggle, how very restrained, wish I could be like that.

FD today not great, finished in 691 cals, dh and ds wanted to go to m&s cafe when shopping for school uniform so I had a vanilla latte which cost me 150cals! !! Ah well, still not a bad deficit

Hope everyone else has managed okay today

Welcome back, Wiggle and well done on your excellent holiday habits

Welcome, Maclairey, House Nice to meet you both

Weight can vary week to week (undigested food, water retention, totm, hormonal swings) which can easily disguise a 1 lb fat loss
However, you should see a downward trend over 2-3 weeks and also notice clothes feeling looser - this is lost fat.

Rate of Loss
Most people lose a few lb over the first couple of weeks (partly released water) and then settle down to a weekly 1lb loss on average.

This may not sound quick, but 5:2 retains muscle mass, so you lose pure fat (plus some water) and soon see a difference in shape.
You may see changes in clothes fit quite quickly, before the scales catch up.
In most other diets, about 25% of lost weight is muscle and even 50% for some crash juice / syrup diets.

People with high BMI may lose 3 lb weekly for several weeks, whereas those already within healthy BMI would probably lose less than 1lb weekly, especially if they tend to overeat on NFDs.
However, people vary a lot, depending on lifestyle, genetics, age, menopause, medications etc
Also, some people lose fairly linearly; others lose in fits & starts.

If you sts for 3 weeks, then (unless it is a plateau after a large weight loss) you are probably eating back the FD deficit, i.e. consuming too much on NFDs.
You need to average around TDEE on NFDs. However, many overweight people have become used to eating more than their body can burn.
So, if you sts, then mfp for a week, for a reality check on portion size and hidden calorie bombs.

House We recommend NO SNACKING between meals & NO GRAZING on FDs or NFDs
Eat meals with at least 4 hrs between.
If you want "treats" - including alcohol - then have them on NFDs as part of a meal, e.g. as dessert or a side.

Snacks, even "healthy" ones, usually hinder weight loss because they keep insulin raised between meals which means your body tends towards fat storage rather than fat-burning.
Also, snacks generally increase the total daily calories.

Near the bottom of the OP, there is a link to research which concluded there is better weight loss & insulin control when eating less frequently during the day, i.e. no snacks.

Also, don't have fruit on its own, even on FDs, because this can spike insulin and make you hungrier. Have the fruit with some protein & fat, e.g. a few almonds / tnsp hummus / tbsp pnut butter.
Generally, base each meal on protein with masses of different veg, then optionally add starchy carbs or fruit.

Those are decent FDs for this stage of your journey, need, knowler
You are finding out which FD system works best for you.

knowler, well done on the first FD! That sounds like an excellent start!

wiggle, that's really impressive for being on holiday. Sounds like you were able to enjoy the holiday food really wisely.

house, we are frame and height buddies, although not as yet weight buddies. My normal non-pregnant/non-BF weight is around 65kg but that frame calculator suggests I should be closer to 60kg or even under, so I'll need to think about that when I get back down there.

Non-FD here, and coming in at exactly 1800kcal (not intentionally exactly!), so that's my TDEE not taking BFing into consideration. I do eat back some exercise calories on non-FDs so, given that that is not very accurate, that balances out the BFing calories for me.

House 9.5 stone sounds a sensible target for your height & small frame

Note: the OP "Useful Resources & Calculators" section under "How to Start" has links to
interactive body visualisations at different weights & measurements. This can also help you decide.
Some people have found once they reach their initial goal that they can easily lose a few more lb; others feel happy with their original target.

Countess 5:2 takes account of BF by allowing 1000 cals on FDs (although non-EBFers may gradually go down to 700)
The NFDs & TDEE ignore BF

bigchoc, ah, that makes sense. So I am doing the right thing ignoring BFing in MFP on NFDs. Thank you!

2nd FD of the complete. I am aiming for a 3rd FD Friday to make up for my missed one last week in preparation for my hol, my target is out the window now (5lbs away as off this morning) I'm not going to get that but will see how close I can get.

Thanks for the welcome wow thank you bigchoc that's a lot of really useful information which I've screen shot so can refer back to without trawling through the thread. There's so much to take in! Really good to know about the fruit thing because I eat fruit on its own quite a lot!

I've managed to stick to my first FD without any snacks go me , and tomorrow I will eat sensible, I really will. Dh called me on the way home from work and asked if he should grab something for dinner and was very surprised at my no
then he proceeded to eat two packs of kettle chips and chocolate crunchy things on the sofa. loudly. don't know how I'm going to get out of the habit of eating in the evenings with this shit going on around me

Morning all and good luck to the Thursday fasters.

House Mosely also advises having no more than 2 portions of fruit daily - that's not just in the weight loss phase, but for longterm management of blood sugar.

Thanks do and well done for only 3lb gain

Hope you've had some more sleep jing

Hi persis good to hear you're doing so well, was thinking of you only the other day, how's the warrior shield and sword?!

knowler good luck and take it easy, PND is a horrible thing

Welcome house and mac and any other newbies....you've come to a great place here, hope 5:2 brings you everything you are aiming for

Great SV on holiday wiggle very impressive!

Thanks BCF I do already avoid fruit juice and dried fruit and have v little fruit (used to eat lots) and i do aim for more protein, less carbs too. Your nudge has got me doing the maths now for old TDEE, current TDEE, current TDEE -15% and, the big one, ultimate goal TDEE -15%. Very useful thanks! Will weigh out the 80g brown rice too to check what that portion size looks like. Know most people here MFP but will keep plodding on the way I 'm doing this and see if I can get back to regular weight losing.

Morning everyone, had a normal night sleep last night so am feeling a WHOLE lot better than I have the rest of the week. Yesterdays NFD didn't go completely to plan and I ate 200 cals over TDEE. I usually am nowhere my TDEE because it is so huge (2324 cals) since starting 5:2 and watching what I'm doing, the only positive I'm taking from it that I faced up to it and MFP'd it all, I would normally just not bother and hide the truth from myself. I've brushed yesterday aside and focusing on FD today, don't think I've ever had a Thurs FD - how exciting!