5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks BC, I'll keep plodding on. I did think to do 3 days 800 bad.
FD finished at 650 today because I had coleslaw. It's still a deficit.

Bsd not bad😃😃

Want eggs, but need fresh ideas ?

FDs 2 minute scrambled eggs in a cup I use almond milk & add 15g grated cheddar + 6 raw cherry tomatoes for 220 cals total (medium size eggs)
For a filling NFD breakfast after FD, try their Mini egg-tomato-spinach flatbreads

Some fantastic SVs!! Well done emison jing overtired *

olive that's great news, onwards and downwards!

Good news here is partner may start 16:1 inspired by me, for the long term health benefits.

NSV here in recent weeks have been described as transformed, skinny, trim, slender! Even though I am still actually overweight but do know I look very very different from 6 months ago.

Not so good news - am still 3lbs up from pre-holiday weight, what a waste of effort the last couple of weeks. Cross with self, tho' know it will go.

Have a good day everyone

Morning all.
That's good news about your partner, clear Those around you can clearly see the difference.
Now you are back in the swing, you'll return to pre-holiday mark and continue fatburning.

Being incorrigibly nosy a few questions if you don't mind:
. How long was your holiday from 5:2 ?
. How much did you gain ?
. Were you consuming different foods - e.g. more "treats" - sweet / baked / deepfried .... ?
. Or was it just more liberal amounts of your usual wholegrains ?
. Increased alcohol ?
. Did your activity level change ?

Clear what a lot of really nice comments!
And great that partner is going to join you for 6:1. Mine doesn't but he eats my FD tea bulked out considerably. He says he's going to start on Huel come October, I really couldn't think of anything worse than just drinking all your meals. I like the act of eating too much, and these type of things always make me think of poorly people who have to get meal replacement drinks. But each to their own and if it encourages him to reduce his alcohol intake then I'm all for it.

Had a mini FD yesterday which went more mini than I wanted (600 cals), but I wasn't hungry after my tea so didn't eat anymore. Ravenous this morning, just had a roll with scrambled egg, yum!

Good luck to all Friday Fasters and Non-Fasters!

tbh BCF I need to step back a bit and review what I've been doing recently as weight loss has slowed and gone up and down a bit. Currently 3lb up but there was also bloat as well that has (probablly) now gone. Only had 1 actual week off 5:2 so sadly I have been eating back the calories.Think it's a mixture of-

Last few weeks I've generally overeaten my usual wholefood fare a bit too often AND also had quite a few days of overindulging in more treat stuff. Not alcohol ( hardly ever drink)

-was so active on holiday (and getting chilly in beautiful cold Atlantic sea!) it made me feel more hungry so probably overate due to that too

-this week have had physical pain (OK now) and lack of sleep leading to me overeating some days

• school hols have thrown me out of my usual 'routines' and having done so well Jan-July maybe I've relaxed a bit too much over summer

-also I think maybe some days I eat a bit too much because I'm doing so well on not snacking at all between meals I end up eating a bit more than I need to at a meal (probablly old psychological stuff creeping back in of fear of not having enough to eat leading to overeating). Need to use that mantra you can have it tomorrow at every meal iyswim.

Basically need to give myself a big (metaphorical) kick up the bum and remind myself that I have still have plenty more to lose and all the reasons I want to lose it. I have also wondered if losing 50lb relatively quickly has led to my body resisting losing weight for a while...don't know but do know I need to get back into more strictly doing what has been working so well for me.

Thanks jing and great your partner going to cut down on alcohol

Marking my place and realising that I need to name change for this thread

Hi all

I'm still here and still plugging away. I managed mostly one FD a week before holiday (plus one week with two).

I'm now back - heavier than I was, but massively refreshed. Had dental surgery on monday and due to recovery from that won't be fasting for another week or so. Am currently getting myself back into my water habit as not much else I can focus on until I get more say in the food I'm eating! (all soft stuff at the moment, and too hot for soups is leaving me carb laden at the moment).

I'll scroll back through and see what I've missed now!

Have had a quick scan to catch up....

Waves hi to TiP, BigChoc, B&W, Clear, annie and anyone else I've missed!

TiP - your comment earlier in the thread :
Its a method for increasing your healthy life span that just happens to bring weight into the correct range.

Has reinspired me. I started 5:2 on a whim, thinking about my long term health and somehow along the way I've become focused on the weight loss over anything else. I'm back concentrating on the health aspects as of now (and obviously also hoping the weight loss continues - just not worrying about it so much)

Clear - nice to see my water gluggling mantra has been continued!

For me I'm getting back to the water glugging, after a little too much wine glugging on holiday! I didn't do too bad calories wise, as often didn't have breakfast and just a very light lunch due to the heat. Evenings were large meals with desert often though, and a vast amount of alcohol was consumed too. I've not drunk since I got back Saturday night and am now back on the water so hopefully that bit of gain will disappear shortly .

I've also (as of today) got back to 16:8 Meals have been all over the place in the summer holidays with the DC, they are away with their Dad this week but due to the dental work (and subsequent painkillers) I've had to eat more often. Thats getting better now and so far I haven't eaten today.

I'm also heading out for an 11 mile walk this weekend with a friend and can't wait!

Welcome back, MrD We missed you !
I hope your mouth soon recovers after your dental op
Try some of these: 30 chilled summer soups

Hallo, Vanilla How are you doing ?

Clear (& MrD) Large Weight loss - & afterwards
It isn't the speed of loss, but the total amount that has affected you, in 2 ways:

1. Losing 50 lb is a brilliant accomplishment, but a smaller bod needs less food.

2. Also, according to Varady, losing that amount gives you a TDEE up to 15% lower than someone who is naturally that weight (i.e. without ever dieting). The reduction may be less - that's a conservative figure.
   This effect is due to adaptive thermogenesis, i.e. your metabolism dialling down to conserve energy
   This would be even worse on other WOEs, where lost weight includes quite a bit of muscle, which 5:2 preserves.
   ^^
   It would take at least a year after you are stable at goal, maybe much longer, for your TDEE to build up to that of someone who is naturally at your goal TDEE

Suggestions
I know you don't want to calorie count, but this is just to quantify what is happening:

• Using activity level "lightly active" (which is regular walking & swimming, non-competitive) . Calculate the TDEE at your original weight Old TDEE and your TDEE now, 50lb lighter . Reduce your current TDEE number by 15%. this is probably your real TDEE now . Subtract this new number form your original TDEE

==> This is how much less you need now than before.
Probably quite a difference to get used to and you are still eating nearer to your old TDEE, hence eating back the deficit.

• Just for 1 day, mfp everything to get an idea of how much you exceed your real TDEE

• I recommend you bite the bullet and use mfp train yourself to eat within real TDEE

• Even tougher next step, calculate your TDEE at goal weight, this is your goal TDEE
  . Train yourself to eat within this on 3-4 NFDs per week (always eat full TDEE at lewst once per week)

• When you come to maintenance, you'll probably need to eat within goal TDEE every NFD and have 1-2 weekly FDs for at least the first year, maybe longer, to compensate for the 15% adaptive thermogenesis.
  i.e. eating back the deficit will have to wait until your TDEE has increased to that of someone who is "naturally" your goal weight.

You absolutely can do this, but it takes hard work and patience.
You are totally worth it !

If the numbers confuse you, I can calculate them if you post your age, height, together with original, current & goal weights

(I'm not suggesting anyone has been at the gin, just that my explanations were a bit convoluted !)

Wow, I've just found photos from my run on Sunday and they are not flattering at all. I look like a small pink elephant! Fairly horrible, if efficient, motivation.

Thanks BCF you're always full of helpful advice. I'm definitely in a tired and emotional space right now and now this evening on top of a tricky week of pain and lack of sleep there's a small scale crisis rumbling around at home.

Being honest here - trying to keep it in perspective but feeling so disapppointed in myself and fearful I won't keep going and will undo all the progress I've made. ... .... All out of proportion, need to get a grip. Know all the factors I listed above have been at play plus what you are explaining makes total sense (but makes it feel very daunting what I am trying to achieve).

Will do some calculations and refocus. Thanks again

and lovely to see you back here again MrD sounds like we might both be at a similar place of this 15% adaptive thermogenesis

Sure I'll feel alot better in the morning if I can get a really good night's sleep

Have a good weekend everyone

I'm so sorry you're feeling in a funk, clear. Just wanted to put t out there...50lbs is friggin' AMAZING. You should be so proud of yourself for achieving that. For making your health such a priority that you've done a RIDICULOUSLY HARD thing like reducing cals an changing habits and adopting a new wOL. Really proud of yourself. Seriously.

clear you've really achieved something amazing. It is so easy to feel scared but you are clearly a strong and incredible person and you have already lost a huge amount. You can do it :)

clear You've done so well, you just need to stay patient and carry on
You are just having a plateau, which is very common after a large weight loss - your body needs time to adjust to its new size and rebalance

You are not alone, Cecile
I refuse to believe the photos of fitness models who are gently glowing after exercise, not a strand of hair mussed.
I sweat like a pig, my hair is a birdnest and my snarl during my heaviest lifts would terrify the Terminator

I don't know about your snarl, but I appreciated that of the female weightlifters in the Olympics...

Thanks cecile BCF garden for wise words and encouragement. Have slept well so feel alot better.

Off for weekend away now so see you all in a few days.

Note to self - on calorie front have definitely been eating too many nuts (plain, not roasted/salted but small sneaky calorie bombs).

Wobble over, focus on healthy active old age regained. I can do it. We can all do it!

Have a good weekend everyone

Have a lovely time Clear.

Checking in for Saturday FD may have breakfast this morning as we are off to do the school shopping this morning. Don't think I can face it on an empty stomach. Wish me luck

thanks olive . Yes, breakfast sounds very wise and here's some huge enormous very patient-take -a deep -breath-take several more deep breaths- luck! And take a bottle of water with you!

Morning all.
Still 35 C here < wipes sweat glow off thread >

Do keep bottles of water with you all day and keep glugging.
I have Marmite even on NFDs, to replenish salt & minerals, especially as I'm a gym rat.
I glug plain kefir as well, good for gut health. Off to buy some more now, then to the gym for spin.
Enjoy your weekend, everyone