5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Congratulations on your new arrival Eagle! I was the same as you: for the first 4 weeks it fell off. Then it stopped and I thorough, shit. The rest is going to be a hard slog! I tried to get back into 5:2 a few times, but couldn't stick it. Nevertheless, my attempts did some good as I didn't gain any more weight and each month I'd either maintain or lose a pound or two. But it's time to crank things up notch now! Enjoy your holiday. My DH is away a lot of the time too. It can be tough!

It must be a huge relief to have shifted that blip stripey. Good luck over the weekend!

eagleray, I have loads of little goals set to keep my on track and so there is always a win in sight. I've got half-termly goals, by the start of next month, the overall goals, losing 7lbs, losing 5kg, dropping a BMI point. I'm obviously really distractible and need lots of feedback to keep me from getting bored!

BCF, I did indeed get to 70kg today!

Well done, emison. Good result!

Hope everyone is having a great weekend.

I had to stop fasting because I have been ill with sinusitis.

I haven't been able to restart because I have started having terrible problems with my blood sugar and the last FD I did was really difficult. Is there any other way I can do this?

My weight was starting to shift but now obviously come to a standstill

Yes Im fasting which has been tough as I've been helping out at the village hall community cafe today. So much cake!
Back home now only 2hrs till dinner

Good to hear you've recovered from the sinusitis, Daisies

Re your FDs:
Have you given yourself sufficient time to return to full health ?
Fasting can be too tough if your body is still rebuilding after illness.
You may need 1 or 2 weeks on healthy maintenance (daily TDEE, no junk, no booze) after all symptoms have gone, before your body can withstand fasting.

When you say FDs cause you blood sugar problems, are you actually measuring your blood sugar levels, or do you mean you just feel weak, faint, headachey, starving ?

In the former case, you could try daily 16:8, but aiming for a daily deficit, so say daily target TDEE-400.
In the latter, you may just need to change the type of food on FDs and the timing:

So, have low carb FDs - protein, veg, fat, no starchy carbs or fruit etc and experiment whether 3 small meals suits you better.
Very few people do well with snacks or grazing on FDs, so I wouldn't eat any more often than 3 times.

Also, what helps avoid headaches and weakness is to knock back a teasp Marmite mid-morning & early afternoon.
It replenishes salt & minerals - in the early days of fasting, you may need this boost, since you are getting less from food.

Whatever the problem, you could try the system I suggested upthread for those with FD problems:
Have 3 miniFDs (up to 1000 cals) on Mon+Wed+Fri instead of 2 FDs.

Congratulations on your SV and 70kg milestone, Countess That success must be very motivating.

Have you had FD supper yet, Olive ? I'm just closing the kitchen now.
I had a big protein & berry smoothie for lunch, then I did afternoon spin.
I've just had supper, which was a huge mixed salad with tuna & balsamic, v similar to what I recommended to Crepe yesterday for her packed lunch.
It was delicious & very filling

Kitchen closed at 510 calories. Had lovely roast salmon and steamed veg dh and the kids had baby salad potatoes with theirs.

Thanks for the advice as always BigChoc

I will try the three mini fast days.

I haven't measured my blood sugar but felt very weak and faint. I am having a blood test for anaemia so that may be the cause. Once that issue is resolved then hopefully I can start FDs again

Thanks for your support

Wow this weekend weigh has been all over the place but after behaving myself now for 2 days my weight is right back down again earlier in the week after my blip I went back up to 9stone 6 and haven't been that high for months after 2 decent days food I'm back to 9st 1.8 so super happy about that.

We have decided on a real treat this week to go to amazing Ice cream parlor so the plan is no junk until then as its so calorific.

Does anyone have sweet potato I keep seeing it in the shops is it better for us than normal potatoes?

I had a sweet potato last night but it is still very carby though I think more vitamins than normal potato?

I am going for a pub Sunday roadt and am ridiculously excited. Am going to focus on the meat and veg and have a tiny bit of potato and yorkshire pudding. Also cake (it's someone's birthday) but just a small bit and NO wine as this is my nemisis when it comes to controlling my food intake. Obviosly this is a NFD and I've saved some calories throught the week so that I can really enjoy it. Is that sad?

Sweet potato has more nutrients (especially for eyes) than ordinary potato, also tastes delic.
Unless you are low carbing, try a 100g portion with skin, either baked whole or as wedges.

That's good news you are back to Happy Weight Stripy
You may find after the ice cream parlour that you have another blip due to water retention with the carby junk. So, see how it goes.

If you are watching carb portions and / or tend to react to carbs, it's generally better to have more frequent portions of slow release carbs rather than low carbing and then dumping a huge amount of sugar & fat in your system - there's a risk of getting into binge habits, or concentrating fat around the waist, even if weight doesn't change.
Treats are fine, just be careful of the portion size and frequency.

Stripey, I've made sweet potato soup this week and I ate a bowl for lunch and supper on Thursday's fast day. It makes a change from carrot and lentil but I'm conscious of the carbs too.

I had a 4lb loss this week and I'm in the healthy bmi range for the first time in 6 years. I'm feeling quite unnerved by it for some reason. I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror yesterday when I was out and I didn't recognise my middle. I've got to lose one more lb and then I'll be at my target weight which I set myself in July. I'm shocked that I've had the commitment and follow through to do it, and very nervous about how I keep on going. I think I'd like to lose 8 lbs so I'm 9 stone. I'll read your maintenance advice again bigchoc as I need to understand and believe that I can keep on going.

Congrats on reaching the target weight onwego.
Some advice please. Two successful fasts this week although not sure of weight loss as I don't own any scales. Have feeling dreadful this weekend though really fluey. Need to get better before big family party on tues. Shall I stop fasting for the rest of week? I don't want to stop progress

Hi all

I hope you don't mind me joining you all. I did the 5:2 for a week pre-wedding and dropped 5lbs. However I know that I have other food issues to tackle, I massively comfort eat/emotional eat so I am starting today but on my NFD I am aiming to have 3 meals, a small treat and not scoff biscuits and rubbish all day. I'm 5ft 8 and 12st 6lb, which is very heavy for me - my 'comfortable' weight is around 10stone I think. Although haven't been that in a long time.

Anyway, I have 3 children so am making food for others regularly but am going to resist sneaking a bit as us mummies do.

So far today I've had 2 glasses of water, a green berry tea and now a black coffee. Aiming for something small as late as I can leave it as think when I start eating I will want more. And perhaps poached eggs or similar for dinner.....

Start of week 4 for me today. Jumped on the scales this morning and weighed in at 10st 7lb exactly, so that's 1.06lb from last week. It's coming off slowly - almost 5lb in 3 weeks.
I've been quite careful during the week on NFS but don't worry too much at the weekend. Still coming to terms again with the fact that you can eat what you fancy and still lose weight - happy days

I've now set myself a goal of another 7lbs before Christmas - slow but sure that's me

Good luck to all the fasters today - feels quite cold this morning, think I'll be reaching for the hot beefy drinks later.

I am trying the three mini FDs as suggested by BCF

Starting today

Hoping this will be more managebale. Will probably go lower than 1000 calories

Good luck to fellow fasters

Welcome to Sleepy lots of advice and support here. Wish you the best in this new way of eating

Toomany I know BigChoc always advises against fasting when unwell and she is the expert!

I hope you feel better soon, Wheelie
When you are feeling unwell, more than just sniffles: You should not fast

Aim for healthy maintenance, i.e. nutritious food, no junk or booze.
If you are not hungry, don't force yourself to eat, but do drink lots of water
Also, if you are still unwell at the party, continue the healthy eating choices and avoid junk & booze.

FYI: Fasting works on the same principle of hormesis as HIIT, i.e. brief intervals of high loading.
Hence, when your immune system or body are already stressed, fasting may be too much load and hemce slow your recovery.

Congratulations on reaching the healthy BMI milestone, Onwego
That's brilliant.
Now you also know that you have the discipline and tools for longterm weight management.

Also check if your waist / height is 0.5 or less, because this is a good indicator of visceral fat, i.e. the fat around internal organs, which is the type we need to target.

This helps decide your Happy Weight Range.
You can also use these visualisation tools from the OP, to help decide goal:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

Well done on your SV, Silver
That's a good rate of progress if you are eating what you want on NFDs

Welcome, Sleepy

Nearly everyone does better with no snacks between meals.
So, I recommend you have your NFD "treat" as part of a meal, say as your pud.

This is because even healthy snacks increases the amount of time during the 24-hr period that you are in insulin-dominant mode,
i.e. storing fat, not burning it.
Junky snacks are even worse, because they spike insulin and can set off cravings spirals.

Good luck to all the Monday fasters

Good luck with your 3 minis system Daisies
Re your iron levels: Many women are iron-deficient, even omnivores.
I'll post iron-rich foods & Vit C combinations later, if that's useful.

Hi BigChoc - quick question - when you advise no fasting when ill, does that apply to 16:8 as well as 5:2? I'm assuming yes, but just wanted to check. Thank you for all your advice as always

About iron deficiency:

Long before I became a vegan, my iron levels were always on the lower end of the scale. I was recently put on a course of iron tablets to address this, but, not wanting to take iron supplements all the time, I searched online for alternatives - and came up with this Lucky Iron Fish.

I've a blood test appointment booked for next week to check my iron levels after 3 months with the fish. I'll post the results when I get them.

Well done Onwego! That is fabulous.

At 4:45am I was up with baby Frazzle and STARVING and dreading the FD ahead. Now I am breezing through my FD effortlessly.

I count this as my second FD of the week and weigh myself on Tuesdays, so tomorrow is the big day for me!

I've beef casserole in the slow cooker for dinner. Love hearing how excited everyone is about food. Mindful eating makes every mouthful so satisfying compared to shovelling in food and not even tasting it!

Good luck fellow fasters!

Thanks All. Feeling much better after a sleep but this week think I will skip it. I really need to buy some scales though

Thanks for the welcome. I have found today OK so far. I've had lots of water, berry tea, coffee, tea and nothing to eat yet. I'm very all or nothing so wanted to try and hold off eating as late as poss in the day to avoid feeling hungry all day. I'm not hungry in the slightest, it's so weird. I fancy eating out of habit. But not through hunger...

I'm wondering what to do for dinner tonight.... was thinking a few poached eggs on one slice of toast.... or maybe tinned tomatoes with scrambled eggs and mushrooms..? I didn't plan my meal but have lots in I could use. Also have ready packed chicken which I could roast with some veg... any tips?