5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done on your FD Halloween and a No Licking NSV

Nearly40 For stable blood sugar, you need to concentrate on low GI foods that release energy slowly and especially cut out high GI food which spikes insulin, but soon leaves you hungry again.

Except for a tiny % of people who have diagnosed medical conditions, we do NOT need snacks between meals.
This has been confirmed by many doctors who daily treat people suffering from insulin resistance caused by frequent eating.
E.g. kidney specialist Dr Fung puts his patients on 3 meals per day

Several scientific studies indicate that people with carb / insulin metabolic issues lose more weight without snacks,
e.g. the OP references a study on meal frequency for thise at risk of T2: even when they gave people equal daily calories, those who only ate twice per day lost more weight than those who ate 6 times per day.

Snacking didn't exist as a habit when I was growing up - we had 3 meals per day, nothing in between.
The invention of snacking by BigFood - because it is SO profitable for them - around 1980 was a major factor in starting the obesity epidemic.

Snacks both increase the total number of daily calories AND keep insulin raised most of the day.
The graphs above show that snacking has massively increased the % of the time people are insulin-dominant and reduced the natural fasting periods between meals that we used to have:

Those pictures for nearly40 sneaked onto my post to Halloween when I wasn't looking

End of the FD here so glad that's done as the children were being rather "spirited" today! I would like to get below 70kg tomorrow or the next few days so we'll see.

Has anyone seen the new Fitbit Flex 2 that's coming out? You can buy (for an extra £60 or £70!) a silver bracelet for it that looks nicer than the plastic for fancier events. I'm quite tempted so hoping that it goes on sale for Black Friday or might make it a reward for getting to my end target.

Countess spirited children here today as well! I can only dream of

Another gain for me...I didn't manage a complete fd this week, though had 3 days below 1000. It's been a bad week all round and I just couldn't find it in myself. Now annoyed with myself and feeling weak. That's 3lbs on in 2 weeks and I'm questioning whether to just do the calorie counting thing. Can I have a quick kick up the jacksy and a reminder why this is the way for me? Ggrrrr.

Please!

In haste here, will check in properly later..... dakota don't panic, some weeks things just don't go to plan. It's a marathon not a sprint, long term life changes bit by bit. We all have slip ups. Just move on from last week and focus on healthy NFDs and next week the FDs may go so much better. And yes, calorie counting may be helpful Good luck

Things been better here, scales going in right direction but too soon to celebrate yet with recent ups and downs. Going to be very very careful today post FD and thanks as always BCF.

Have a good day everyone

Thanks for the encouragement and advise. 2nd FD complete yesterday and the blip of the extra weight gain is gone as I lost 3lbs over night. Plan to behave myself for the next couple of days drop the 3rd FD and fast Monday instead.

Does anyone know if this diet upsets hormone based contraception? I'm on the merina coil and just wondering if that's safe (don't want to get pregnant)

BCF your graphs are very interesting as I was having a conversation in the week that is having issues with high insulin levels effecting moods, I'm going to show her that as the doctors advice was to never eat carbs again and tbh I'm worried for her about that as I know from doing that for just 3 months how harsh it can be on your body.

Dakota, not going to kick you, but agree it can be so hard. You can do this because it does work. I have to calorie count as well as 5:2 because I'm 5"1 and because I'm having to re-learn what the right amount of food for my height/build is. It's taking a lot of effort particularly when it comes to my desire to eat for emotional reasons.

Bigchoc, I read what you said about post 1980 obesity and it's made me feel so angry about how the desire of big companies to make money is seriously damaging our health. Teaching our children to navigate this is going to be a challenge. Having just walked down my high street in London illustrates how we have to exercise self restraint in the face of incredibly tempting food offered at prices most of us can afford. Rant over...

I was going to fast yesterday but felt like I couldn't which is unusual for a Thursday. Decided to just let it go and am fasting today. I'm going to eat this evening and make a delicious low calorie curry so I've got something to look forward to.

Happy Friday fasting all.

Quick checkin post here as concious I haven't and don't want things to slip!

Weighed in today even though no FDs and TOTM still just about hanging in there, 3lb down (which is what has gone on since it started) so must be nearly through and I'm heading back down. Nice to know.

Stressful time (once again) with the ExH. DD is really unhappy and has had a rough week, I've stopped her going to his this weekend until we sort out her feelings - at mediation so I can make sure he's listening. He is unimpressed and making it about him, hasn't actually indicated any worry for her at all. Ho hum, I'm being assertive and we'll get there - AND I've not resorted to comfort eating!

You can do this, Dakota !
It's quite possible to lose with 3 mini-FDs (up to 1000 cals) per week (non-BFers)
In fact, for people who really have problems with FDs, I suggest minis on Mon+Wed+Fri, which gives the same weekly 3000 calorie deficit as 5:2 for a 2000 TDEE and a similar 1lb loss.

However, whatever form of fasting you do, weight loss is mainly determined by 3 factors :

1. it is the weekly calorie deficit that (after the initial high loss) is the main factor in weight loss
2. Snacking / grazing tends to sabotage weight loss. It keeps insulin levels high most of the day, see my graphs and tends to increase the total daily calories.
3. For many people, the type of calories are important too - sugary, junky food and / or high alcohol tend to switch the body to fat storage - especially around the mid section - instead of fat burning.

My recommendations:

• NO SNACKING ever, even "healthy" snacks
  Eat 3-4 meals per NFD, 1-3 meals on mini / FDs, nothing in between
  Have any "treat" as part of an NFD meal

• FDs / mini-FDs: Absolutely no junk or booze on these days.
  Also no fruit juice or breakfast cereals. No more than 1 portion fruit
  Base meals on protein, masses of veg and optionally small portions of wholegrain carbs

• NFDs: Calculate your TDEE (for sedentary or with exercise level set 1 below what you think)
  Stay within this on your NFDs, or you will eat back the calorie deficit from mini / FDs
  Do NOT eat back exercise calories or you will be counting them double (they are built into TDEE).
  Also, fitness machines & gadgets flatter to deceive.

• mfp for the next 2 weeks, for a reality check on NFDs particularly, wrt portion size - especially carbs - and hidden calorie bombs
  Some people, who have been overweight for years, or whose hormones have changed, have got used to eating far more than their body can burn

• Keep within nhs alcohol guidelines every day
  Start each day with a glass of water and keep drinking.

• Lower GI of your food: Cut right down on sugary crap, biscuits, cake, crisps, pizza, junky carbs etc.
  Swap to potatoes (not mash), rice, quinoa wholegrain carbs
  Boost beans, peas, lentils

• Post here for support whenever you feel tempted to go off track.
  That's why we're here

Well done on your SV, MrD and on not letting your ex ruin your progress in this WOL.

What a shame he puts his ego before his DD

Well done on your SV, Stripey You're comfortably back on track.

re your qn: Any stress, including weight loss (for v lean women) or job / family, can change the cycle for some women, but that's not specific to 5:2
The only unexpected pregnancies I know of on this WOE are because it can often help PCOS and other insulin-related conditions that might be preventing conception.

Can I have some advice please on packed lunch for a FD. Am going on a field trip on Monday which will be the start of week 4 for me. I feel like I've got into a routine so want to keep it as a FD especially as I have a coupke of social occassions this weekend so FDs not possible. I can't take soup and can't not eat as I will be having lunch with a group of girls of a particular age where not eating would be (a) noticed and (b) questioned and (c) possibly admired. I don't want to have to explain etc. I also want to be able to have a fairly filling meal in the evening (so maybe a big bowl of soup then?).

Anyone got any ideas?

crepe how about:
Big Tupperware of Cubed cucumber tomato peppers with a little avo and line juice, loads of cilantro and parsley black eye beans and a teeny bit of flaked salmon with Cajun spice. Loads of bang for your calorie buck;)

Fritatta loaded with veg

Steamed. Broccoli salad with almonds and lemony dressing (although this makes for a erm,sulpherous, Tupperware smell!)

Breakfastlunch: yoghurt, nuts, seeds and a chopped apple (this is calorific though so watch portion size)

Ooh I also like ottolenghi's zucchini and turkey meatballs. Google it for details...I oven bake them which would lower cals.

And bbc goodfood do a "super healthy salmon burger" which is yum. You could have it with a carrot /cucumber salad

Thank you everyone. I'm going to go away and have a good long chat with myself. Will be back next week raring to go.

You guys are fabulous!

Crepe I suggest just black coffee / double espresso for FD breakfast
Large skinny lunch:

• 80g boiled & peeled King Prawns boiled (Young's are 50 cals) or 50 g tuna (tinned in brine) - protein keeps you full
• BIG green salad - lettuce, young spinach, watercress mix (only 15 cals per 100g)
• 25 g Radishes thin sliced (only 4 cal !)
• 100g tomato very thinly sliced (18 cals)
• ½ yellow bell pepper in thin strips (12 cals)
• 20g grated carrot (8 cals)
• 3 v thinkly sliced black olives (14 cals)
• 2 tbsp Balsamico vinegar to dress, no oil (28 cals) OR ½ lemon to squeeze over (8 cals)

Thanks for the info bigchoc, v interesting! I find that for the first few hours it feels really good to be fasting yet on a NFD I'm not in the mindset and I feel like i cant do without snacking mid morning and mid afternoon. I weighed in this afternoon, silly really considering it's totm and I'd normally only weigh naked in the morning but I was 1lb down. I've lost 2 so far, having already lost 7lb in August & September on mfp. Totally agree about the tiny number of calories us shorties need being difficult! I gained weight after going on anti depressants last summer, I have now reduced then down to the lowest dose so fingers x this will help.

Well done to all those fasting on a Friday and keep up the good work!

Thanks for the suggestions. Sounds like salad and some kind of fish are the way to go. I DO NOT need a sandwich! (or crisps. Or a kit kat)

The wonder drug.

More confirmation that exercise is essential for good health, in this morning's Mirror.

Posted this on the 5:2 Exercise thread, but figured more people would see it over here.

Another 0.5lb off so my weight loss total now stands at 12.5lbs

FD for me today. Anyone else ? Olive ?

Congrats on your SV, Emison Good steady progress. You'll soon celebrate your 1stone milestone.

Congrats to you too, achieving the 80 kg milestone, EagleRay
It's a WOL, not a race
Just regard this weight loss phase as the training part of your longterm WOL
It helps psychologically to break up goals into smaller chunks of 5 lb or 2 kg say, with a big milestone at 75kg.

You'll nail that 70 kg milestone soon, Countess Just keep on nailing the FDs and have sensible NFDs.

Congrats on your SV, Nearly40
Now to crack the snack habit - to switch your days from insulin-dominant, to switch your body from fat storage to fat burning:

For 1000s of years, until about 1980, it was normal & healthy to feel hungry between meals, so that you have a good appetite for each mealtime.
Big Food has invested billions to brainwash you into believing you need snacks.
You don't.
Their goal is profits; yours is longterm weight management & health

Next time you feel tempted to snack:

• chant "health not profits"
• chant "fat-burning, not fat storage"
• have a glass of water
• clean your teeth
• don't just sit there; do something else: trim / polish your nails & toe-nails, go for a walk, dance to your favourite tune, sort out your wardrobe & decide which clothes will be too big soon, read a book ......