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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/08/2016 19:25

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2016 15:58

FastingRocks A day on 16:8 is normally less stressful than a 500-cal FD
However, when ill, it's still advisable to ease off 16:8 too.
So, eat when hungry and don't aim for a calorie deficit.
Same advice about supporting your body with high nutrient meals, lots of water, no junk or booze.

Sleepy Many of us find it easier to keep all / nearly all FD calories for supper. This also gives you a decent meal.

Your scrambled or poached eggs idea sound fine. Also vegetable omelette.
If you are one of those who find bread too moreish, then a small portion of baked potato may suit you better

Baked chicken (i.e. v little / no added fat) & veg sounds good too. You can add root veg if you wish.

Other popular FD options: curry, stew, stirfry.
Also recipe ideas in the OP links under "How to Start"
Anything with plenty of protein & veg, with optionally a small portion of starchy carbs

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2016 16:08

Iron Deficiency
Many women of menstruating age are low on iron, sometimes other minerals too.
Especially if you have heavy periods / do a lot of running / have a vegan / vegetarian diet.

Symptoms are constant tiredness - difficult for most mums to notice this !

Iron Supplements:
I'm not a fan, unless the GP advises them

  • possible imteractions with other meds you are taking
  • or side effects like diarrhea, upset tum, inflammation etc in some women. - Also, if the GP wants tests, these can interfere with results.

Never exceed the stated dose.
They are absorbed better on an empty tum, but at least don't take them with dairy or caffeine, including tea.

If you have T2: Consult the GP, because side effects of iron tablets may be serious for you

More Iron from Food

Highest sources (in descending order):
liver, clams, oysters, beef, sardines, turkey, chicken, salmon, tuna, haddock, ham

Important With vegetarian sources of iron, you must combine them in the same meal with food containing vitamin C, to enable sufficient absorption.

Combine Vit C sources - especially good: apple, tomatoes, pomegranates, peaches, dates, bell peppers
with iron sources - recommended: spinach, soy / kidney beans, chick peas, lentils, almonds, walnuts, sesame seeds, broccoli, baked potato

Suggestions: (Good for other minerals too)

  • Bake cake / biscuits with dates and walnuts
  • Add spinach and sesame seeds or roasted nuts to curry or stirfry
  • Moroccan vegan tajine with chick peas and dried apricots
  • Garnish a savoury dish with yoghurt and pomegranates
  • Dessert: slices of orange sprinkled with roasted nuts and pomegranate
OP posts:
Nearly40butnotyet · 10/10/2016 16:26

Welcome Sleepy and good work all of you fasting today. I'm fasting, this is my tricky time of day as the kids need to be fed but I'm trying to hold out as long as I can to eat!! Can't decide between eggs, beans and toast and a huge salad with boiled eggs. Leaning away from the salad purely because I don't have the energy for chopping things up!!!

Sleepymumma13 · 10/10/2016 17:22

Nearly40, I totally get you - I have 3 under 7 and usually pick at their leftovers... not today though.

I've had 4 raisins.... I'm not sure why they called out to me haha.

I'm thinking I'm going to have a frozen Fish fillet thing dusted in lime and coriander which is 200 cals, and then a heap of veg, and a low fat muller light cappachino flavour later if feel peckish. I'm SO proud of myself. And if this is the first day, I feel a lot less hungry /hangray / shaky / emotional than I remembered last time!!! YAY ME x x x

BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2016 19:43

Sounds good, sleepy Smile

Stay strong, Nearly40 Not long to go

OP posts:
FrazzleM · 11/10/2016 08:54

Weigh day today and I've now lost 9lbs of my baby weight. Getting there! Smile

Daisiespurple · 11/10/2016 09:56

Thank you Bread about the lucky fish. Looks amazing, will definitely give it a try.

Thank you BigChoc for the tips on getting iron from food. Much appreciated.

Managed 630 calories yesterday on mini FD and managed to lose 1/2 pound which is good because I wasn't expecting any loss!

Sleepymumma13 · 11/10/2016 10:41

Well done Frazzle! 9lb that's fab.

Today waking up after first FD I'm not even hungry. I ate a penguin because I could though. But that's it for 'treats' today. Got a lovely jacket potato with chicken and salad planned for lunch and perhaps chicken curry with a little rice for dinner. Yum yum I love food again :) Feel so happy and energetic today.

Have a great day everyone and enjoy that yummy food, whether a FD or NFD! x

Sleepymumma13 · 11/10/2016 10:41

Well done Daisiepurple too on your FD - 630 is pretty good going! x

onwego · 11/10/2016 11:17

Wow Frazzle, 9lbs is great!

Woodifer · 11/10/2016 11:25

Had a successful FD on Monday.

Black coffee, water , peppermint tea then cup of bovril around lunchtime.

Took kids swimming and friends came for lunch after - DH made bacon sandwiches at me!! I lasted out until was chopping carrots to make kids tea about 4ish and ate a couple of slices totally without thinking!

Had a ready meal for my tea (430cal) - but prob went a bit over 500 eating kids crusts!! (and counting bovril from earlier), also a square of dark chocolate (I know on a FD!!)

think bovril helped - but i did get a bit of a headache - the next day! Going to try fast wed or thursday too. :-D i was AWOL a few weeks doing some sporting events where i didn't want to fast. Thanks for all the support and inspiration ladies!

HalloweenQueen1 · 11/10/2016 12:26

Hi Folks, just checking in for the Tuesday fast day, was ok over the weekend (may have had a few G&Ts more than planned on Saturday night!) but have stayed well within TDEE yesterday & Sunday so I'll be knocking the alcohol on the head again now until Christmas at least. Well done everyone on all your SV & NSV, great to read about them. I weighed myself on Friday morn and have another 2lbs off (nearly at the 1st stone off marker) and definitely feel clothes looser around the waist and just feeling overall better. Thanks for the info BigChoc on Diabetes it runs in my family so it is something that I'm conscious of and want to avoid (one of my main reasons for fasting actually) anyway going to have some nice soup now (118 Cals) and having an omelette with salad for dinner (284) so plenty left for a few mugs of milky tea....hope everyone else is hanging in there Wink

HalloweenQueen1 · 11/10/2016 12:28

Way to go Frazzel that's brilliant Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2016 17:18

Congratulations on your SV, Frazzle That baby weight is melting away with fasting.

Congrats on your SV too, Halloween nearly at your 1st stone milestone.
Intermittent fasting has been shown to help insulin metabolism; also related issues such as PCOS.

For those with a family history of T2, I recommend going low GI longterm and cutting right down on sugary crap; research shows the type of carbs matters, not just the total number of grams.
High consumption of sugar and / or fructose syrup brings a far higher T2 risk than other carbs.
Mosely, along with many doctors treating T2 patients, recommends keeping fruit to no more than 2 portions per day and concentrating on the low sugar fruits.

Well done on your 1st FD, Sleepy You sound very chirpy

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2016 17:30

Congrats on your SV Daisies and 630 is more an FD than a mini.
So you've made an excellent start on your 3 miniFD system.

Well done on your FD too, Woodifer
To avoid headaches, I'd recommend glugging neat a teasp Marmite - it has more concentrated minerals than Bovril, and boosts B vits too.
What also helps is lowering GI, so if you feel hungry, I recommend just adding protein, e.g. a hard-boiled egg, instead of the kids' crusts.

OP posts:
Sleepymumma13 · 11/10/2016 17:50

OK, I ate 3 penguins, but am counting cals so whilst that's clearly not good, I'm accounting for it. Am surprised today that it's been harder than yesterday!

Maybe I'll do another FD tomorrow, will see how i Feel in the morning x

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2016 20:55

Sleepy When you are hungry, eat a meal, or wait until the next meal.
Junk doesn't satisfy hunger - it increases it.
You can always have one Penguin as pud, part of a meal, but avoid junk on its own

I recommend you get into an NFD routine with regular mealtimes.
Decide if you prefer 3 or 4 meals, then have them say 8am+1pm+7pm or 8am+12pm+4pm+8pm

OP posts:
Sleepymumma13 · 12/10/2016 12:39

Thanks BigChoc, I know. I'm terrible with biscuits, chocolate, I eat them with a cuppa as a snack several times a day, but am working on it.

Woodifer · 12/10/2016 12:51

fast day here - coffee and peppermint tea and water - a bovril drink (still haven't got marmite!) - now having some salad and a hardboiled egg (confess i had some vinaigrette in my drawer at work so i put a tiny bit on as i forgot to bring just vinegar.

got a low ready meal at home for later ( i like knowing the calories - and not thinking about portion size) - my night in so will have to resist snacking while watching bake off!! maybe will have a low call 7-up or something that feels treat like!

seem to have lost a couple of pounds - is that just water?

Daisiespurple · 12/10/2016 13:11

Thank you for the encouragement BigChoc - you got me back on track Flowers

Thank you Sleepy also

Another mini FD today. These are more manageable for me and I am keeping my calorie intake as low as I can.

Good luck to all fasters today Smile

samandcj · 12/10/2016 13:43

Monday's FD was tricky - I needed to take my elderly DM out for lunch. She is underweight and needs no excuse to stop eating....... so I have to eat "alongside" her to encourage her. (On a normal FD I don't eat until my main meal at 6pm). I had a baked potato with tuna & salad at 12:30 ... then nothing else all day. I probably was slightly over the 550 calories and certainly didn't enjoy my evening without food - but I did it!
Today's FD should be easier .....I find that I don't feel hungry until after that first mouthful of the day.
It would help if I could be flexible about which days I fast - but I seem to be better if I stick to the same ones (get them out of the way at the beginning of the week)

Breadandwine · 12/10/2016 13:52

Nice to see lots of new people on board - welcome, you've certainly come to the right place! Smile

Another on a FD today - started at lunchtime yesterday (working through the evening, so it's easier to have a big meal earlier), and I'm about to have a bowl of soup when my 24 hours is up.

I made a huge pan of veg bolognaise sauce, some of which I turned into the soup. I wanted a low calorie day to compensate for my binging on dates, walnuts and dark chocolate. And cake. And biscuits.

So,

CQ · 12/10/2016 14:44

HI there, I'm on my first ever fast day today.

I've just hit 50 and all the usual things I've done in the past to lose weight no longer seem to be as effective. I've been a yo-yo dieter all my life, but running usually makes the weight & inches drop off. Having just returned to running after an injury lay-off which has seen my weight pile on, I'm finding it near impossible to shift the weight, plus running while massively overweight is not good for 50 yr old joints! And it all seems to be piling on around my belly which I know is really dangerous. So here I am.

BMI of 37.1 Shock Hideous.

But I feel optimistic about the woe. I have strong willpower for limited periods so I hope 2 days out of 5 can work for me. I have recently been cutting back and ditching the alcohol, so the 5 days at TDEE will be ok. And being so heavy makes my TDEE quite generous to start with.

The op on this thread has SO much good information. I've read it twice and will keep going back to it I'm sure.

I haven't read all 32 pages of this thread, so apologies if this has been asked before, but I'd appreciate some tips on how to talk about this to my kids. I have a 17 yr old DS who is a fanatical rower, works out 11 times a week, eats about 5000 calories a day and just doesn't understand my issues at all. Then I have a 15 yr old DD who would like to be a couch potato and watch Netflix all day, but she is inspired to be active by her brother, and by me and her dad who do a lot of running, tennis, cycling etc. She is gorgeous but she has my physique which tends to put on weight easily. I don't want her to think that a lifetime of diets is a good thing. I'm tempted not to tell her I'm doing 5:2, but I don't want to tell lies and have to cover things up. How can I put a positive message on this? Any tips?

Sorry this is so long!

Emison · 12/10/2016 21:13

My daughter is 16 but I have told her all about why I am doing 5:2 (thyroid medication that blocks my thyroid from working) and she just accepts it. Up to today I have lost 13.5 lbs. I'm hoping to lose my first stone by next week!

BigChocFrenzy · 12/10/2016 21:15

Welcome, CD Smile
I'm glad you found the OP useful and I hope your 1st FD went well.

Middle Age
Most women find from about age 40 onwards - which is normally perimenopause - that they start to gain weight, even when they could quite easily manage weight before.
It usually gets worse during meno - when the sharp hormonal change causes fat storage around the middle - and the hormonal balance postmeno is very different to your younger days.

The good news is that Intermittent fasting, like 5:2, helps insulin metabolism and imo is the most effective method for peri / meno / postmeno weight management.
I'm 60 and with 5:2 I reached a healthy weight & waist - and have maintained this for the last 2.5 years.
This is now my lifetime WOL.

But note:

  • Weight loss tends to be a bit slower & tougher for us. We get there in the end, but may need to be stricter than the young'uns. e.g. if you have a lot of junky treats & snacks, you need to drastically cut down.
  • Your hormones will never return to what they used to be. So, you have to permanently change your WOL - even when you reach goal

Telling your DC:
We normally explain to DC that they need more food because they are growing, whereas adults have stopped growing, so need less.
In your case, even easier: you need to eat differently because of the menopause.
Your DS will just think " Oh, womens' stuff !"
Your DD will think "That's only when I get ancient !" Grin

OP posts: