5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I'm in the same freezer predicament as you zebra! Life's too hectic to sort it out right now, so in the meantime I'm only buying enough food to make 3 healthy meals at a time. It's working for me.

Stripey That 3 lb is just a blip, due to undigested food plus extra retained water due to indulgences.
If you resume standard 5:2 and avoid bingeing, that should go again

I agree with everyone that when trying to get NFDs under control it is often counter-productive to add extra FDs to compensate - 4:3 has quite a different balance to 5:2 and can feel more like deprivation, hence can make NFDs even tougher.

I recommend you keep to 2 FDs weekly and concentrate on healthy, satisfying NFDs.

If you have been longterm low carbing, it is important to avoid the tempation of carby junk, but instead add sensible portions of healthy starchy carbs, e.g. beans, lentils, sweet potatoes, brown rice, quinoa.
This should satisfy your body's urge for quick carbs, which can drive binges.
If you find carbs can starting cravings, I recommend avoiding high GI carbs - bread & baked goods especially, also crisps, pizza, sugary crap.

That's a good FD, wheelie Sounds like your body has fully adapted to fasting

I'm glad there's another croaker, Frazzle Excellent that all the mini-Frazzles enjoy your croaks

well done halloween on ok weekend

nearing your goal on that's great. Yes it can feel daunting how little it takes to put weight back on (only 2" taller than you)

good luck stripey I'd agree with others, just focus on the NFDs don't add extra FDs

Still battling evil homeostesis body biochemistry thing here. Not yet out of the woods with the carb craving monster lurking within that takes a grip and seems to want to get me back to that v v overweight place I hope I have left behind. NFD today fine, yesterday NFD not so fine. Can just feel so hungry post FD at the moment. Can see from what you write BCF that my next weight loss stage will also be harder as I've carried this extra weight longer but NOT GIVING UP.

Battle lines are drawn, I will keep on trying to find ways to deal with the inner carb monster.

And message to babyfrazzle nights are for sleeping! You are hardcore fasting with sleep deprivation frazzle !

Clear To beat down the carb monster, I'd suggest you try say 2-3 weeks of Mosely's low carb Mediteranean BSD maintenance for NFDs;
imo, It is far healthier than Atkins type low,carb, because BSD includes beans, lentils & peas (but no other starchy carbs) and plain full fat yoghurt.

I appreciate few of us want to low carb longterm (unless they have reversed T2 say)
However, a few weeks can really bring cravings under control for some folk.

1lb down.

I did my FD Tuesday and lost 1lb of the 3lbs I put on, undecided if I was fasting or not today so weighed myself and thought it depends on my weight. Not good Ive put on 4lbs.

I've got the merina coil and was in agony last night so I think it's my time of the month even tho I don't get them so that could explain a bit but normally it's a lb or two not 4lbs.

It's the wake up call I need, time to sort it all out. I will be meal planning today.

Hi - can I (re) join your merry band?
I started 5:2 after the original MM programme. It really suits me, I originally lost a couple of stone and brought my cholesterol under control (7.2 down to 4.6). I maintained quite easily until I got lazy and stopped checking the scales.
My issues are that I have a DH who is very trim and only has to hear the word "fast day" and will lose 7lbs and a DD who has never had to think about what she eats.
My fast days are usually OK (I try to keep under 550 calories) - I need to keep a better check on my "normal" days. I am definitely better at excluding completely than cutting down. I have cut out alcohol and bread completely - no problem! but am struggling to manage portion sizes.
I have approx 1.5 stones to lose - but am also doing this long-term to manage my cholesterol.

Checking in for a Thursday fast Clear I have an unpredictable carb monster lurking as well, and once it strikes I loose the plot completely so I'm trying to up my protein & plant intake to see if I can shake the cravings for carbs that I get when I eat carbs, if that makes sense.... Anyway pint of water for breakfast and a 5 mile walk planned for this morning....have a good FD Thursday fasters. Hi Samanddcj, welcome aboard I have a dh who is the same very annoying!!

BigChoc thanks for your feedback to me - about ten days ago but I have gone back to find it and read it.
I have to put my hand up and join the "recently slipping" crew.
Massive family stress and not getting enough sleep means that I haven't really been sticking to 5:2 and I've been having a lot of carbohydrate hugs and snacking as a reaction.
Worse, I have returned to my terrible habit of excessive Diet Coke drinking.
I don't actually have enough money to sustain this expenditure on quick snacks and soft drinks (!) which just adds to the stress as well.
Apologising for using this thread as an accountability mechanism. Reading your recent NSVs in particular has made me determined to get out of this lifestyle and back on the way to being healthier.

Congrats on your SV, Olive

These threads help us keep on track, Cecile so they are definitely also for when life sends us off plan for a while.
The important thing is, you've decided to get back on track and you've made your plans

Welcome, samandcj
It's tough to stay on track when those around you maintain weight effortlessly
< snarling at them doesn't burn much fat >
However, except those who gained weight only from a temporary event, we all need a maintenance plan, that is different to the WOE that caused the original overweight.

You've reached goal once and you know how to do so again.
What we've learned, that may be new since you were on the original 5:2, for weight loss & maintenance:

Anyone who struggles with carbs hunger / regain

• Eat NFD meals at least 4hrs apart, no snacking / grazing between
• Daily 16:8 or 14:10 both increases fasting benefits & helps control NFDs
• If you are insulin resistant (typically carb cravings, fat added around midsection) you need to go low GI: cut out junk carbs and watch portion size for healthy carbs
• Low carb may be necessary for 2-3 weeks to zap carb / sugar cravings
• Mosely's Fat Blasts (5 mins HIIT on 3-5 days, see OP in 5:2 / IF ExerciseThread3 ) can help correct insulin metabolism
• Keep within nhs alcohol guidelines daily & weekly
• Try to get sufficient sleep each night
• Keep drinking water, starting the day with a glass and continuing throughout the day

Stripey Hormonal swings can certainly retain a lot of water.
They can also upset insulin metabolism and cause cravings & hunger
I still recommend concentrating on 5 sensible low GI (not low carb) NFDs, rather than adding extra FDs when your body is uncomfortable anyway.
Don't make life any harder.

Hi all on FD, struggling a bit today on mine. Have only eaten bowl of soup for lunch 220 cal but very hungry. Got yesterday's nfd wrong and ate too little after a FD and did lots of exercise but am now starving

too drink water, keep busy, keep warm, have a little marmite and an early night after your food this evening. Good luck!

well done olive that's great

take it easy cecile stress and sleep deprivatrion make it so much harder to eat healthily

don't panic stripey bet some of it is fluid

Very focussed on dealing with carb monster here - nailed my NFD yesterday and FD fine so far today. Tomorrow is the challenge, when carb cravings are most likely to hit (in recent weeks)

Have been upping veg and beans here halloween. Finding it helpful posting here about my inner carb monster, rather than just feeling bad about it. Am on a mission to get back to steadily losing

Interesting advice BCF - would that be beans/lentils/peas instead of all starchy carbs ie no brown rice, oatcakes, etc for 2-3 weeks? And from what I understand of the BSD diet, upping healthy fats? (olive oil, full fat yoghurt, flax oil)

Thanks Clear and BigChoc.

Checking in on a FD and feeling very hungry but not long until dinner! Chaos is ensuing around my ankles so will report back later...

Thanks Bigchock
So my plan is:

• drink more water (I can definitely improve)
• No snacking
• Reduce carbs / increase veg portions
• finally accept that my DH needs bigger portions than me - this is going to be hard!

I am motivated! I will have a positive Friday/weekend (all NFdays)

Does everyone weigh weekly? I tend to lose heart if the scales don't behave as I think they should.......

That's a good plan, samandcj
A short women may easily have TDEE 1500 and their male OH or teenagers 3000+
i.e. the buggers may be able to eat double what you do !

Clear Yes Mosely's BSD version of low carb replaces all starchy carbs by beans, lentils & peas and also encourages full fat Greek yoghurt.
I'm suggesting his maintenance version for NFDs, of course, so roughly TDEE (not the 800 cals 8 weeks BSD !)

So, you have a wider choice of food than with classic low carb, healthier and less restrictive
In particular, research has long shown that these added foods are good for thise aith insulin resistamce or T2.

Fat:
You are adding fat with a daily portion (say 100-150ml) of full-fat yoghurt.
You can also sprinkle a tbsp seeds on yoghurt or salad, or add a tbsp flaxmeal in a stew.

Replacing your current starchy carbs by beans / lentil portions is a straight swap.
So, calorie total after all these changes should be about the same. Just more filling.
No special need to add fat, olive oil or flax oil unless your normal food is v low fat or you feel hungry. Try first.

clear Yes, Mosely's low carb Mediteranean has no starchy carbs except beans, lentils, peas.
i.e. no potatoes, pasta, brown rice, oats, millet, wholegrain bread, crackers, rice / oat cakes etc
Those are all good carbs to bring in later, but they are not low carb

Hi I am new to mumsnet and looking for support. This is my 2nd week of 5:2 and today is my 2nd FD of the week. It is also the first day of my period and I'm really struggling!!! I am 5ft 2inches and weigh 10 stone after putting on 1 stone over the last year. I have also started doing HIIT training on my turbo trainer a few days a week but not on FDs. The problem is I seem to self sabotage and begin to think oh I don't care anyway when of course I do, I haven't been able to wear some of my clothes since 2015!!!
Anyway I gave been gathering strength and inspiration from all of your posts...thank you!!

Welcome, nearly40
Aargh poor you with totm:
Sooo glad I'm long post-meno !
Probably you are already starting to experience pre-meno hormonal changes, such as tendency to gain weight around the mid-section.

It's totally normal to find 5:2 (or any weight loss WOE) tougher during totm:
The changed hormone balance ramps up cravings for carby, fatty, energy-dense food (the combination that piles on the lb)
Totm also causes temporary water retention, which adds bloating & lb - so ignore the scales.

Our NO snacking rule is even more important during totm, to avoid cravings / binges.

Try to avoid junky "treats" because they just ramp up the cravings spiral.
If you can resist the totm munchies, especially on NFDs, you should drop any retained water weight following the FD after totm ends.

Thanks bigchoc I'll bear that in mind tomorrow, I used to think it was essential to snack to keep my blood sugars stable but on a FD I can easily go all day until about 4pm feeling fine. I think I went over by about 100 cals but at least I didn't give in to chocolate or wine! For now I'm off to bed, Friday tomorrow hooray!!

FD no 2 done - just closed the kitchen, ended up getting roped into making some home baking for a school thing tomorrow, it was very hard but I resisted, didn't even lick the spoon and thankfully it will all be shipped off in the morning i would nearly consider that a NSV so just sitting down now with a cup of decaf tea finished on 502 Cals today. Hopefully will be able to keep a sensible approach at the weekend, off out for dinner on Saturday and am going to try hard to keep a lid on the carbs & alcohol hope everyone got through today ok too....see yas on Tuesday for another one