5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Good luck on your 1st FD, FaceHugger Ignore your DH if he can't resist beer for one day wimp

Knowler Why not make yourself bacon sarnies tomorrow;
Even share the joy and have them as a family Friday supper with grilled tomatoes & mushrooms, say. Maybe go wild & add Heinz baked beans.
If you need to buy ingredients, I recommend you do so tomorrow morning, not today !

Another thing I haven't thought through properly... I've now got to go to do a big food shop on a FD. Will be changing this next week.

Share my bacon sandwiches...? i do not think so :)

So I just weighed in after taking your advice last week. Clocked calories all week, two successful fds and one long swim...2.6 lbs down. Delighted. That takes me to 5lbs in a month. Not exactly dramatic loss but I'm really quite enjoying it and am very much looking forward to eating guilt-free over the weekend.

Thanks for all your help!

I'm confused and suprised all in one.

Three weeks before I went away I got down to 9 stone 2.4 after one of my second fast days. I was amazed as I've never got past 9st7 as I would previously return to normal diet and gain. My weight kept bouncing around and I didn't get back to that weight again before going last weigh in was 9st3.

With me I find my weight needs to stabalise before I can loose again.

Upon return from holiday I weighed 9st 5.8 and this week have been keeping a eye on it. I've not fasted as per BCF instructions as I'm on antibiotics until tomorrow. In the last couple of days I have seen a decline in the scales. I think eating less than hols and no drinking and eating good meals but I have had 2 puddings this week.

This morning I've woken up to 9st 1.6.

Just 3lbs away from target now and really looking forward to my FD on Monday.

Morning everyone! I've fallen off the radar a bit this week, had a FD on Mon then started to feel really rubbish, completed it but haven't had another one this week although I am feeling a lot better now and could but I don't think I will . I am being mindful of what I'm eating though, no snacks and lots of water and that had been easy so I feel less bad about skipping a FD and I am already feeling motivated for next week.
And I do have a NSV, trousers are now officially a 18 down from a 20. Surprised since I've only lost 15lbs, but I'll take it!

Good luck to all fasters, I'll catch up with you on Monday

Olive creeps into thread looking embarrassed and sheepish.
my scales were broken the foot fell off when I picked them up
I didn't lose 13lb last week.
But have lost 7lb over the last fortnight. And got my scales replaced as well

< sneaks a look at knowler's bacon sarnies, to check if she's guarding them >

Lots of lovely SVs and NSVs just before the weekend - let's try to keep the weekend fairly sensible, to maintain these.

Well done on your SV, Dakota
5lb in a month is good progress, especially when you are enjoying the WOE

Congrats too, Stripey
After a week of eating within TDEE - and especially no alcohol - you have now achieved a milestone SV.
Also an NSV: you haven't jumped straight back into your old WOE after 9.7, but continued on track.
You are so near goal, time to start planning maintenance, so you alsways stay in Happy Range.

Well done on your trousers NSV, Jing 15lb is a good total loss, hence the downsizing.
You did especially well on a tough week, keeping to good habits, especially water & no snacks. That's exactly what to do, when you can't manage FDs for a little while.
Next week you can jump back into your usual schedule and nail the next FD.

Congrats on your updated SV, Olive
It's good you found the scales had broken, but the inch loss remains, so that's lost fat
7lb in 2 weeks is excellent progress.
It's actually positive you didn't lose 13 lb so suddenly, because although that could happen in week 1, it was rather odd when you've already beeen losing for months.

I wasn't on a FD but I managed without lunch so just ate breakfast and dinner today. I felt much better for it too. I couldn't have even contemplated this before starting 5:2. It's made me realise I can manage without eating as much as I do.

Well done, Daisies That's a learning NSV
More 5:2 mantras:^^
^^
^If you are not hungry, don't eat
Eat meals. When you are no longer hungry, stop eating^

This thread is great to read, it really keeps my motivation going.

I lost 2.5 lbs this week, I'm really pleased with how I'm feeling about myself and this way of eating. Now a total loss of 16.5 lbs since the beginning of the summer holidays. I've stopped drinking alcohol except on special occasions and I have noticed how much I relied on the treat of a glass of red wine and crisps after a difficult day. I'm enjoying feeling more energetic and have incorporated and stick to 10k steps each day. Going to have fast days on Monday and Wednesday next week. I'm going to make a Thai prawn soup with lots of vegetables and will take a boiled egg for lunch.

Congrats on your SV, Onwego That adds up to a substantial loss for you this summer.
Well done too on your exercise & alcohol NSVs.
You are developing excellent habits for longterm health & weight maintenance

Fasting today makes the food good tomorrow. (German proverb)

Here's an update on my 2:5 progress - which I've been employing for about 5 months now.

I had 3 aims:
Reduce my alcohol intake;
Cut out my evening snacking;
Cut down on sugar.

I found the alcohol habit the easiest to control - I've only been drinking on Saturday and Sundays since the beginning. I've reduced the nr. of units down from 28 a year ago to around 6-7 a week. And from today, I'm cutting out drinking on a Sunday!

Evening snacking - I've been pretty good with this during the week. but come the weekend, I do look forward to a late night snack. However, from this weekend, I shall only snack on a Saturday night.

I've found cutting down my sugar intake by far the hardest. I try and limit myself to 1 or 2 squares of dark chocolate a day - and I snack on walnuts at the same time, so I feel I'm getting some trace elements at least.

I'm well aware if I haven't got stuff in the cupboard, I can't eat it, but ATM I have Mrs Crimbles ginger cake (vegan) - which lasts me about 10 days; a packet each of Rich Tea and Digestive Lights (neither of which contain palm oil) - both of which will last me about a fortnight. I could cut all this out, but I figure, what the hell, I am maintaining, after all!

Talking of maintaining, I'm coming up to 4 years at the weight I am now - 24lbs lighter than when I began, four and a half years ago!

4 years maintenance will be a wonderful achievement, B&W
iitc, that 24 lb was after you had earlier lost weight on WW and thought you were at your longterm lowest - it shows 5:2 reaches the parts where other WOEs can't go

re snacking:
I'm glad you also avoid palm oil too

If you ever want to kick the snack habit, several possible tactics:
. Could you increase the portion size of your evening meal instead, especially protein like beans & lentils ?

• Or move supper later - maybe increasing lunch size and moving that back too.
• Or including that ginger cake as your pud after supper would be a good compromise.
• Personally, I recommend that when you fancy a "snack", go for a quick healthy mini-meal (equivalent to ginger cake cals), e.g. your warm homemade bread with hummus or nut butter would be much tastier than mass-produced vegan junk.

Add a banana / figs / dates if you fancy something sweet - or have the fruit with soya yoghurt.

Breadandwine, wow, 4 years maintenance is v v impressive. As is the alcohol reduction. I incorporate 1 - 2 squares of dark chocolate into my daily allowance. It's the only sugar I have. I'm wondering if I should reduce to every other day, but it's something I look forward to with a cup of herbal tea/decaf coffee when the kids are in bed. Do you plan on cutting it out?

Thank you bigchoc for your words of encouragement. I feel like I've started a much healthier way of living and I want to make sure it continues. I cycled again today, something I wouldn't have done at the beginning of summer.

Thanks, BC.
Yeh, I was12.10 at my heaviest - and got down to 10.10/12ish with WW. This, I was told, was my natural weight. So I was quite surprised when the weight started falling off me when I began IFing - and I ended up at 9.2-4, where I remain today.

I don't do much snacking as such. I do have my ginger cake after a meal - but then I sometimes go on and have a couple of - totally unnecessary - biscuits. But I'm getting there!

And you're right - a slice of my homemade bread with my ginger marmalade would probably be a healthier substitute!

onwego, sounds like you've got everything going in the right direction. Great progress.

I don't see me giving up the occasional piece of dark chocolate any time soon, but I reckon I could give up drinking alcohol at home, and just having a drink when I'm with company.

First FD yesterday complete after my holiday. Was going to go for today but as my H now works the weekends and a day in the week and doesn't require feeding it made sence to shift my FD to Sunday and Thursday from now on.

Have been having a think about maintenance BCF and I think I'm going to do as and when FDs if that sounds good? Will do minimum of 1 a week will keep a eye on my weight if I need to pull it back take the 2nd??

Where do we stand on fruit and the sugar in fruit? Would 1 portion a day be adequate?

I want to start cooking again properly as I've been really lapse with that over the last month.

Good luck to all the FDers today

FD today. I've taken a handful of herbal tea bags with me to work, and I'm planning on eating lunch at around 1 and dinner at 8 ish which will be leftover chicken and lots of vegetables. Anyone else fasting today?

Morning, Monday fasters !

B&W, Onwego 1-2 squares of dark choc is just the type of little treat we can continue longterm.
If you can train yourself to enjoy the 70%+ coca variety, then it may even have health benefits.
I learned to enjoy Lindt Mild Excellence 90% cocoa which has only 1.4g sugar in 20 g. So, I have no hesitation about a coiple squares of that.

Of course, very occasionally we'll probably all indulge in some delic junky choc - e.g. mint Aero or Galaxy salted caramel once every 2-3 months for me, but I genuinely don't fancy it any more often.

I'm fasting today, onwego

Stripey The most important rule in maintenance (after any diet) is to weigh regularly, at least weekly and if you ever gain 4 lb then resume immediately, so it's still quite easy to return to goal
Especially weigh the day after you return from any vacation.

6:1 is a popular plan. At need, add an extra FD if you have an indulgent weekend away
Just continue sensibly on the other days:
eat meals with masses of veg, no snacks, your normal exercise - and you should not need mfp
Remember to continue beans, lentils, peas, plain yoghurt - all excellent for blood sugar control & health.

Fruit
Mosely recommends 1-2 portions fruit daily, but no more. Also that we concentrate on lower sugar fruit like berries, apples, pears.
So, maybe keep banana, mango, dried fruit etc to weekly or occasional.

Benefits of Berries - for any fellow science geeks

Several studies on humans & animals, e.g. in J Nutrition & Metabolism
have shown exciting beneficial metabolic effect of daily berriy consumption, especially lingonberries, on metabolism, body fat and NAFLD (Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease, increasingly common with junky diets)

This was a study on mice put on high-fat diet, which backs up human trials and gives more insight into the mechanisms (can't lock up humans for months in a lab cage to test them, or dissect their livers !)

Note: like some other studies, this found acai berries worsened metabolic markers / bodyfat - so ignore anyone pushing those acai capsules.

Lingonberries are a type of wild blueberries, not so common in the uk.
I can get them fresh in Germany, or off-season I order the freeze-dried powder from Amazon to add to yoghurt, porridge or smoothies. However, blueberries or blackcurrants - NO added sugar - look good substitutes.

Thanks BCF your advice is invaluable.

I bought Frozen Berrys so I can just defrost them as and when as we really do not have much fruit in the house.

One bonus to having my teeth done is I now have to keep my oral hygiene tip top so I have found I have not snacked at all this week as teeth brushing 3 times with three meals is enough and can't be dealing with the hassle. It really is a bonus as it does make you think twice.

I will meal plan this week and do a big online shop. It's a new routine for us so I do need to plan things out.

My mum is considering 5:2 as she has been ordered to stop slimming world with immediate effect from her cancer consultant (can't think of the technical name) due to her weight loss being muscle rather than fat. They advised her to loose belly fat and put her on a scales that measures fat and muscle % before starting and a stone down not even a inch lost on belly and her muscle has drastically gone down. She was told high fat high protein.

I am still finding it difficult to go to the supermarket and by full fat versions myself as I've been doing low fat for so many years it's so absurd.

Sorry just thought, I've been buying almond milk that I use in the ocassional coffee and a protein shake now and again. Is there any benefit in that or would green top milk be suffice? Only because I was getting almond milk on special offer but I do begrudge paying £1.50 a carton when I can buy 2 long life milks for that.

Hi all, FD for me. Miso soup for lunch with some shredded veg in it and prawn salad for dinner. had a decent enough weekend food-wise: had some pretty tasty meals, but kept snacking to a minimum without even trying much. a big NSV for me, as it's the compulsion/habit of snacking and eating when i'm not hungry which is my biggest problem.

Stripey Re your mum:

Probably the worst disadvantage of ordinary "daily calorie restriction" diets like WW is that typically 25% of the lost weight is muscle, sometimes up to 50%.

This is particularly so if people restrict calories but still eat the same junky type of food, e.g. too much cake, biscuits, pizza, crisps
Some folk try to keep all their usual treats, so cut out other foods, i.e those with actual nutrients, so they are often deficient in essential fats, vitamins, minerals.

Another risk factor is being sedentary and controlling weight by intake alone.

Even when they are at goal weight, such dieters are typically TOFIs (Thin Outside, Fat Inside) sometimes called MONW (Metabolically Obese Normal Weight) who have excessive amounts of the dangerous visceral fat, i.e. fat around internal organs.
In fact, studies with DEXA scans etc show 10-25% of people with "healthy weight" are TOFIs.

One great health benefit of Intermittent Fasting WOLs like 5:2 are that IF preserves muscle, so that lost weight is pure fat, plus released water.
This has been demonstrated in many human studies and by many expert trainers in rl.

Many of us have noticed we are genuinely "smaller" than we would expect at our weight, because muscle weighs more than the same volume of fat

I suggest your mum:

• Starts 5:2 with 1000-cal FDs on 2-3 days per week. Protein & veg FDs, no crap
• 4 meals per NFD, no snacks between, Mosely's longterm low carb Mediteranean = cut out all sugary crap (cake, biscuits, sweets) and most starches like bread, pasta, rice, potatoes, pies, pizza, crisps Eat . fish, poultry & meat . beans, lentils & peas . masses of veg . plain yoghurt & cheese . 1-2 portions low sugar fruit, especially berries & apples with skin . Sensible portions of avocado, nuts, olive oil
• Exercise: At least 20 mins walk per day, ideally build up to more vigorous exercise 2-3 days per week.

Hey all! I've been on here a few times and then fallen off. Last time was my most successful - I lose a good amount of weight pre-holiday, then... well, the usual! Ate a lot on holiday and kept putting off starting 5:2 again until it was all back on..

So I'm starting again. I did one FD yesterday and am taking advantage of not feeling very hungry today by doing another, just to get my head back in the game. THIS TIME, I am aiming to get to my goal of a size 8-10 over a few months, from my current size 14, and maintain it.

My downfall is always stress and feeling low - I need to stop self medicating with food and drink and start doing nice things, like having a nightly soak in the bath.

I've bought an electric bike too, which I'm aiming to commute to work on. Need to convincve myself to do it and not wimp out and get the bus.

Argh FD fail! I did myself a lovely stir fry with Quorn steak pieces and a pack of Asda stir fry veg. The use by date on it was today and I didn't smell anything off when I opened the packet. Took one bite and the veg was rotten! I salvaged as much of the Quorn pieces as I could stomach and the rest went in the bin. DD1 kindly offered me one of her potato waffles and I ate it. And ate the other one that DD2 had left over. And now I can't have the sachet of Options I was looking forward to this evening because I'm currently at 608 calories according to MFP. And I'm still hungry. Sigh.

Oh well. Tomorrow is another day!