5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hello again everyone. FD.today and I've survived the school holidays on a pattern of Fast Days and Feast Days whilst maintaining my weight. I have another stone to lose to get to a healthy BMI so this Autumn I'm on it! This way of eating works!

Hi again. 4th FD on Thursday, and I've got a 6 hour drive to get through. I thought it would be good not to have normal distractions, but will have DDs with me! Any suggestions for low cal snacks I can have en route? Will be having a meal in the evening but can't last on black coffee...

Hi NomDe

Personally, I'd munch on a few raw mushrooms; much better - and tastier - than celery.

Good luck!

Hi Nom - when I had to do similar distances I would have latte or milky coffee rather than black. Drinking any liquid doesn't kick start my appetite - even raw veg would do that, then I'd be into snack foods . Having the milky coffee def kept me going longer!

This has to be balanced with planning loo stops en route of course!

Good luck! I'm having a very definite non fast day today as I'm off up to London to meet a friend and go to the Tate. Nice food will be eaten and good wine drunk. I so love this WOE! Thank you St Michael of Mosely!

FD today, hoping I can get rid of the TOTM 0.8kg weight gain

BigChoc I noticed you said have a teaspoon Marmite or a tbsp unsweetened soy sauce if feeling faint on FD. I do occasionally feel faint but I hate both of those, is there any substitutes that might help?

Well done on holiday maintaining, Fusspot

Nom Some folk find milk spikes hunger; some find veg does.
iirc, Talkinpeace recommends raw carrot sticks; she munches them very thoroughly.
Any raw veg would do, without any dip etc
Important: drink LOTS of water - take 2 l with you, plus whatever the DC will drinks

Daisies Those 2 are the best. I suggest you regard the teasp Marmite as a teasp medicine and just slurp it down in 1 gulp, with a glass of water afterwards. An acquired taste.

Another option might be miso soup (I find horrible !) but check it has only 35 cals - some have added oil / veg / tofu / noodles and can be a lot more - and include in your daily total,

That's helpful, I'm going to pack a lunch of smoked salmon and raw veg so I don't go near the Krispy Kreme stand! I don't do milk in coffee but have to have tea to wake up. Will def take water.

Aaaaargh!!!! FD here today. I am on annual leave this week so am at home which I find not to be ideal on a fast day. I am in the middle of (TMI ALERT) a very bad period - think my womb is trying to exit my body and my children have talked utter nonsense constantly, without drawing breath for the past 3 hours. I am this close >< to screaming FUCK IT!! and ordering a Chinese - please talk me down guys?!

Just hold out Vegan. You have done most of the day fasting anyway so don't spoil it now. You can have the Chinese tomorrow and you will feel better for it because you stuck to your FD

Nearly there. Stay strong, Vegan and chant our 5:2 mantra:
You can have it tomorrow !

Thanks guys. I have just stolen from my daughter's plate. Not my finest hour but DH had given her several massive pieces of broccoli which she was never going to finish so I had two of them. Broccoli is surprisingly filling! DH is going to put the kids to bed and I am going to go for a short walk to get out of the house and become a pleasant person again

Thanks for the support Daisies and BC. You guys rock x

Well done, Vegan Hooray for broccoli - great FD food
Try to have an early night after your walk, because stress is tiring

Thank you - just having food vicariously this evening - GBBO and a cup of tea with almond milk. Feeling happily smug now

nom I also enjoy slices of cucumber with a bit of chipotle paste (check brands though as some are pretty high sugar. I make my own) keep me v satisfied (it's kid of like eating nachos!). Intensely savoury and the spice means you can't really have too many. I normally do this for FD dinner (with avo/spinach/tomatoes etc) but it would make a yummy snack!

FD for me today. Just got to work to find that they are doing FREE BREAKFASTS downstairs. Now I find that the training session I am presenting in 10 minutes has FREE BACON ROLLS. It's like the universe is conspiring against me

Off to get a black coffee!!

knowler that is a kicker! FD here too and I was jut thinking I would nail a bacon maple pecan pancake stack;) Bcf said on an earlier thread something about communal cake (or bacon rolls!) having poo crumbs from the great unwashed. Always puts me off now, haha..!

I deliberately fast on a thurs as I o I a group which has vast quantities of cake every week. Fasting is the ony way I can resist (as, on nfd is probably fool myself that id just have one...!)

Happy FD Thursday fasters:) I have a tasty ratatouille (thanks spell check...not sure I could spell that first thing in the morning fter a rough night) already roasted and ready to eat for dinner with a cod steak. Yum!

FD here, second of the week. Really struggling, my weight goes up and down all the time, I'm mid cycle and find I can gain just as much mid cycle as when I get my period I want and but trying to be grrrrrrr

Avoided the bacon rolls. and the sausage ones. and the pastries

Proud of myself: feel like I'm genuinely starting to eat less by choice. I still have an internal discussion/struggle with myself whenever confronted with food (especially when it's free ) but it's becoming less urgent. Thank goodness. When ppl say they have a thin person inside them, I never get this - to me, it feels like there's an even fatter, greedier person inside me who I am constantly trying to silence. Hopefully this WOL will quieten her down a bit.

Forgot to ask, does everyone weigh themselves weekly (or more)? I'm considering trying to resist it for a month: my weight can go up and down by 3lbs in the course of a day, and despite really having stuck to it this week, it's been TOTM, so I suspect I'm not going to lose much, which will be disheartening.

Was reading Joe Wicks yesterday, who advocates getting rid of scales (or 'the sad step' as he calls them which certainly resonates with me) and I'm not at that stage yet!

Bacon rolls That's really evil of them on your FD, Knowler Are they available to orrow too ?
< dribbles on iPad, thinking of lashings of crispy bacon on brown toast, Heinz ketchup >

wrt weighing:
if scales bother you, then you could weigh every 4 weeks say, on the morning after the 2nd FD of the week. That should smooth any blips and you should see progress from month to month.
In the interim, you can check via clothes fit if you want; if you have jeans / skirt / dress that is tight now, then you should find it becoming looser over the weeks.

GardenGirl I definitely didn't say "great unwashed" - I'm no politician !

However, I do have this mantra:
Communal food has communal POO crumbs & communal SNOT

Think how many colleagues don't wash their hands properly after the loo, or after blowing their nose.

Overtired Scale blips are very usual - due to undigested food, hormonal swings, water retention after a very carby day - so a typical weight graph looks like a demented zig-zag.
However, the trend over the last 3 weeks should always be downwards (unless you have recently lost a lot of weight and now have a plateau)

I recommend you look at your NFDs, because you may be eating back most, or all, of your FD deficit.
NFDs should average about TDEE or below
Mosely says calculate TDEE with activity level set at the one below what you think.

Have you tracked on mfp for 7 consecutive days, in case you need a reality check on portion size and weekly number of calorie bombs "treats" ?

I think its probably more I have been drinking 3-4 milky drinks on FD, as opposed to black tea and coffee [hangs head in shame]

Also the hormones thing, I gain the same mid-cycle as I do for my period, so I only really get two weeks a month where my menstrual cycle isn't affected

However, I do always feel better, I usually track NFD on MFP, and my evening meal on a FD consists of around 550-600, usually just a much smaller version of OH dinner as I don't get time to prepare different meals, however, I would not have the carbs, usually just protein and salad.

Checking in for my first FD! Going well so far, had a coffee at breakfast and haven't eaten yet but will have some soup after I've dropped DD2 at nursery. DP has decided to fast with me so I have some moral support at home. Bet that will all change when he gets home from work and wants a beer though!

Poo crumbs and snot has genuinely put me off communal food...! I suppose I should say thanks

No free bacon sarnies tomorrow as I don't work on Fridays. Although this has now made me question whether the rest of my office now spends Fridays pigging out on free breakfast when I'm not here. Must control inner greedy-guts.

Knowler I hear you! I always curse why I'm doing a FD when an email goes round work for doughnuts in the kitchen on someone's birthday, or sweets or holiday etc.