5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks BigChoc all your wise words are much appreciated!

Hey fasting gang.

Back home from hols now and I've just weighed. Only 2.2lbs on. Very happy with that indeed as my guess would of been 5 on.

Apart from more carbs than I would consume at home I think I did pretty well. As I am a complete pig normally at these all inclusive places. But I can say I really didn't over indulge. I had a small pudding or two and a couple of wines in the evening with diet lemonade so didn't feel I missed out or over did it.

Missed a few meal times due to dental trips as I was in more times than anticipated.

I have been advised to eat normal food now and get used to my teeth again as I'm pretty scared of them so plan my first FD for weds.

As I'm pretty new to this fasting BCF could you tell me if fasting will be ok on antibiotics I'm on amoxicillin for 5 days and strong pain killers if I need them but I'm hoping not to take them unless I need to as one of the side effects was a bad belly and my god I suffered yesterday.

You're probably glad to be home, Stripey What a relief to have all your teeth fixed now.
We always say don't worry about a few lb holiday gain - a WOE has to handle holiday breaks, to be sustainable longterm.

Whether fasting or not, an empty stomach tends to make antibiotics work more effectively BUT also increases the risk of them upsetting your tum.

I recommend you NOT fast this week and - provided your stomach is ok - start the following week.
Otherwise, too much stress for your stomach:
antibiotics, getting used to teeth, possible painkillers, recovering from flights, different food ....

Just eat nutritious meals within TDEE, no snacks or junk.
I'd cut out alcohol and fruit juice too, even if they are not mentioned in the instructions: each tends to increase the risk of a stomach upset.

I'm sure you would anyway, but:
Complete the antibiotics course unless otherwise advised, without any gaps in the prescribed schedule.

Thanks so much BCF will go food shopping tomorrow and sort myself out for the week.

The pharmacist has written on the box after food. This is my second box but of course all the instructions were in Turkish.

No more alcohol now, my H even said yesterday he wants to cut down as he used to have a drink every night but since me starting 5:2 he was having 2 dry days. Funny enough after watching the horizon program.

Juice is out of the question I never buy it but I had a small carton on the plane home omg I was in agony as I had my gum lasered due to a extra peice of skin where my teeth were apart and now they are not they had to remove it. Forgot juice was acid so I will not be trying that again in a hurry.

All my milk yoghurt and cheese is now full fat as I previously used low / reduced fat. But what's the score with meat? Naturally I would buy reduced fat mince and sausages.

Thanks, your knowledge is amazing!

Those dry days will be good for your DH, Stripey
Your example is encoraging him towards a healthier lifestyle too
And you are now enjoying the much tastier full fat dairy versions, yum.

Wrt meat:
on FDs, I'd suggest you make it lean, to make the 500 cals easier.
Also, tuna, shrimps / prawns, cottage cheese, eggs are all high quality protein for low cals.

On NFDs, just whatever your personal taste is. Personally, I cut off all visible fat because I don't like the taste or feel, except for very crispy fat.
Again, I suggest you widen your protein repertoire and add oily fish like salmon, also sea bream, bass etc.
I recommend fish to everyone: delic, satisfying and healthy for heart & brain
Also from Mosely's longterm Mediteranean recommendations: boost beans, lentils, peas, hummus etc

Good luck, Monday fasters
How are you doing so far ?

Can I come back? I have been here before under various names. But am really really struggling to be good and stick with it. Since holidays I can't even get through a single FD. I am in desperate need of losing a stone and have lost all motivation.

Wed - Will be my first proper FD and I shall be good! In the meantime I just have to keep my snacking under control the next couple of days.

My 3rd FD and I'm finding it fairly easy, but I had a big lie in so have only just had brunch. Next week I start work full time and will have to plan meals and incorporate FD dinners with what I'm cooking for everyone else. For tonight I've got some squid from M&S (precooked) and it's only 106 cals/100g/portion.

Right. I'm doing this, and I'm counting on you lot to keep me going and kick me up the bum when I need it!

I'm a long time lurker, de-lurking in the hope that a bit of encouragement will help keep me on track.

I managed to lose 2 stone doing 5:2 three years ago, but after a lot of shit and a mountain of excuses the weight has slowly been creeping up on me again. So today I thought that enough was enough. I've added a load of fresh fruit and veg to this week's food shop and downloaded MFP and have scoffed the biscuits so they're not lurking in the cupboard waiting to tempt me.

So. Erm. Hi!

Wibble!

hi hugger when are you starting? Great to hear it worked for you before. I notice grapes are much more calorific than most other fruit. As for 'grape juice' ...

FD8 for me Nd the first time I haven't eaten till tea time. Woop woop!!

although I might have opened the flood gates now!

Hi all, I'm tentatively joining the thread too. As a 5ft2 woman, I've only just begun to realise that someone of my height needs to consume less calories. And, as a result of sticking to between 800 - 1000 calls, logging on mfp, I've lost over a stone. I've kind of been doing 5:2 a couple of days a week too.

So today, I've had:

1. Small boiled egg for breakfast
2. 25ml skimmed milk with coffee
3. Chicken breast, watercress, tomatoes and cucumber for lunch.
4. A total 0% yoghurt for a snack
5. Dinner will be chicken stir fry without carbs.

I'm conscious that I feel completely satisfied and that I must be doing something wrong! Does that sound about right?

Of course you are welcome back, Round
< peers under Round's false nose & moustachios to check who she really is >

A few suggestions that may help you, or any other returners, get back in the fasting swing:

• NO snacking or grazing on FDs & NFDs . Even healthy snacks keep insulin raised & tend to make you hungrier
• On NFDs, have 3-4 meals, go lower GI . Avoid junk carbs / sugary carbs . Boost protein, veg, beans, lentils, peas . Watch portion size of rice, pasta etc (80 g uncooked weight), potato (100g), no more than 1-2 slices bread per meal . If you want sweet treats, 2:5 them, i.e. only have them on 2 NFDs per week and 1 portion only.
• On FDs: . aim to have lunch & supper, no snacks between, just black espresso / tea for breakfast . base FD meals on protein - boost protein to feel fuller - masses of veg and optionally a small portion of starchy carbs . NO fruit, juice or cereals (FDs) . NO sweet treats or alcohol (FDs)
• Since you have problems making 500 cals you could optionally ease your way in with 3 x 1000-cal mini-FDs Mon+Wed+Fri, instead of 2 x FDs.

Hello again. After introducing myself a couple of weeks ago I ran away...despite doing ok and managing fast days relatively ok (probably a bit more than 500 cal but not much more), I've lost 3 pounds but then put half of it on again at the weekend. Didn't massively over eat but did have 4 (home-made and very nice) flap-jacks and some apple crumble...think I know where I went wrong really!

So done another FD today - hope I'm nearly back to where I was...didn't eat anything today until dinner (just water, coffee and green tea) - then had chicken and rice and vegetables. The problem is, I did feel a bit faint about 3 o'clock but find if I eat lunch then I actually feel more hungry and it's very difficult to stop myself eating when I get home from work!

Hope you're all managing better than me!

Welcome, Hugger < admires the stomp & attitude >
The suggestions in my post above to Round are probably useful to you too - consider that a nudge in the ribs, rather than a kick lower down.
btw, Mosely advises keeping fruit to maximum 2 portions per day. So boost veg, beans, lentils

Welcome, onwego and congrats on your SV.
Your WOE sounds v similar to Mosely's BSD (Blood Sugar Diet), which is 8 weeks of daily 800 cals low carb Mediteranean.
So, that sounds fine
You could also add beans, lentils & peas, as he suggests, to help stabilise insulin levels.

The BSD is the most effective weight loss diet I know of, pretty healthy too, but is intended only for short-term use.
I suggest that after 8 weeks you switch to 5:2 BSD for a few weeks: that is the same low carb Med food, but more of it - so around TDEE on 5 x NFDs per week, plus 2 x 800-cal FDs.
If you still have weight to lose, you could resume the BSD afterwards.

Good luck to all the newbies and returners
Post whenever you need moral support or advice

Well done on your FD, Dakota
Many folk, once they have got used to fasting, find it easiest to have nearly all their FD cals for supper

Well done on your FD too, Aracena

To avoid feeling faint or headachey on FDs:

• Have a teasp Marmite or a tbsp unsweetened soy sauce (each 10 cals) at lunchtime and optionally also mid-morning.
  This replenishes lost salt & minerals (lost because FDs have much less food & more water) - low levels of these can often cause these symptoms, when you are gettng used to fasting.

• Lowering FD GI may also help:
  . Boost protein & veg
  . Cut out juice and maybe also keep fruit for NFDs

weekend weight blip:
Weight may naturally fluctuate day to day by 2 lb or so: undigested food, water retention, hormonal swings etc
That blip is probably mostly water weight, because excess carbs are stored with 3-4 x their weight of water.
Tomorrow, you'll probably find the water has been released.

Monday fasters: Well done, everyone.
Clean your teeth now, to avoid temptation; have an early night, also to maximise fasting benefits.

I've lost 13lb this week. I have changed scale batteries and tried it all over the house and its still the same.
I've lost 1inch off bust and 1.5 off waist and half each from Upper arms.
It can't be normal to have such a big loss though

Olive, how cow 13lbs that absolutely fantastic.

My H noticed I had been struggling with eating my food so took me to a butchers yesterday and bought lots of meat so I had steak pork and prawns for tea to get back on the horse so to speak.

Surprised when I got on the scales this morning to see only 0.8 lbs up from weight I was the day we went on holiday.

I may try a fast day possibly tomorrow and see how I get on as I now have that target weight in sight and I will then shift to body image rather than weight loss.

hello all, yesterday was a FD and it was ok - about 650 kcals, so i am slowly getting there! also quite proud of myself because I spread it out over the day (had 3 small meals) and didn't overeat in the evening for the first time in about 3 years!!

NFD today and feeling ok, but as i think i said before, it's taken me til now to realise just how huge I am. I did a run at the weekend and was scrolling through the photos afterwards. I spotted someone dressed identically to me, same colour hair and thought, 'that's me', but when i looked more closely it was someone who must literally have been about 4 stone lighter. When I found the one (thank goodness) photo of me, I was appalled. I am literally like one of those photos they use on the news to alert people of the dangers of obesity :( At least it has focussed me on what I have to do now.

Morning all

Going in for a Tuesday FD here - which will be a little bit of a challenge due to TOTM. As a result I'm splitting into 2 x meals (normally do one) as I think I'll cope better. Hoping to avoid the ice cream!

Knowler - Just imagine though, that could be you in 6-12 months!

Olive - 13lb!!! I'd say that is a pretty big loss yes! Though - How much has your eating in general changed? I'd maybe look at allowing an extra 100-200 cals a day to slow it down a little for now (on NFDs) ... as you're a few weeks in now and should be settling into a rhythm. Though BigChoc will be along shortly with better advice I'm sure (and take hers, she knows what she's talking about - I'm just guessing and saying what I''d do!)

Welcome newbies! Post all the questions you think of, there are lots of experienced Fasters here to help!

Thanks MrDarcy. It's just the shock of seeing myself as others must do.

Stripey After your op, antibiotics, flight etc I firmly recommend you do NOT fast this week.
Play safe, prioritise health and start next week if you feel ok

Olive Almost all that 13lb and lost inches would be retained water being released.
The record in 1 week is 19 lb that Mosely reported someone lost on BSD, but then they only lost about another 6 lb total during the other 7 weeks.

iirc, you are still quite a way from goal weight - how far to go ?
Are you doing 5:2 or 4:3 ?
Are you eating your full 500 cals on FDs and around your full TDEE on NFDs ?
Have you calculated your TDEE correctly - if you have a fair bit to go, your TDEE should be quite high.

In any case, you have already lost a few stone so far.
Hence, I suggest you pause for a couple of weeks to let your body rebalance and rest.

So:

• no FDs the next 2 weeks
• eat nutritous food every day, up to TDEE
• DRINK WATER, lots of it.
• Don't worry if you gain a couple of lb ; that'll be water again

After that break, when you feel ready:

• Resume with only 1 FD. Only go up to 2 if you sts.
• Eat your full 500 on FDs and TDEE on NFDs.
• Keep drinking water

Pat yourself on the back, Knowler You are making good progress
You are gradually moving to target, learning healthier eating and exercise habits

Stay on track with 5:2 and the loss really mounts up over the weeks and months. Several folk on these threads started at BMI 40+, so this WOL works for all sizes & shapes.

btw, I recommend you also do strength / resistance training, e.g. pump or Pilates. This cross-training boosts fitness and would be easier on the knees & hips.

Thanks BigChoc, I am working on my exercise and am aiming for 1 or 2 runs a week plus 1 or 2 strength based sessions. I know HIIT and resistance training is great for fat loss but I enjoy the peace and quiet during a half hour jog. Also, my running is so slow that the impact on my knees is minimal!!

Thanks for the welcome, and thanks for the advice BigChoc!

I'm planning my first FD for Thursday so will be scrolling through looking at meal ideas. We're a vegetarian household but have been relying a bit too much on Linda McCartney burgers lately - not looking forward to stepping on the scales later!

It feels good to have made that decision to do something about it though. I'm actually looking forward to getting back in the saddle.