5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Congrats on your SV, Knowler
You are doing fine;
It takes time to retrain "normal" eating to what your body can actually burn - that amount is heavily dependent on 2 parameters we can't improve: height & age.

Most new habits of all types take a month to become ingrained and eating / drinking habits can take a lot longer.
NFDs are really great opportunities to retrain, while the FDs are providing fat loss.

Well done on your FD, Wheelie
Fasting gets easier for most folk after 2-3 weeks - your body adapts and also you develop a routine that suits your individual lifestyle & food preferences.

Checking in for my Saturday FD
Off shopping in a minute and then to our local agricultural show later if it ever stops raining.

Welcome back, Vegan and lovely to hear from you again
Congratulations on your SV - almost 4.5 stone, how wonderful for you !

Only 5 lb to ditch the obese BMI class, such an important milestone.
Do post then, so we can all cheer you.

That's an important lifestyle NSV - liking your body again.
Also well done on your healthy lifestyle NSVs;
your higher protein vegan food sounds delicious, filling and much more nourishing to your body than those white sugary carbs.

You are another example of how 5:2 works for all kinds of lifestyles:
vegan / vegetarian / pescetarian / Mediteranean / low carb / omnivore .....
Also for people ranging from BMI 40+ to those already near or within the recommended BMI class

I expect one of our longterm maintainers, breadandwine, who is also a longterm vegan, will come on to wave to you later. He has some good vegan FD recipes that might suit.

< waves to olive > We'll be Saturday FD buddies today

Thanks Bigchoc. I will definitely post as soon as I get to my overweight BMI goal.

Dakota I use MFP everyday. It really doesn't take much time at all once you get used to it and it keeps me on track. I find when I don't use it I massively underestimate my calories. I also have it connected to the "Pacer" app on my phone which counts my daily steps. This also keeps me on track and I am for at least 10,000 steps a day. I am a real numbers person and like to see progress and achievements in a numerical way to motivate me. MFP allows you to track your weight too so you can see how much you've lost and see trends, it's a great way to keep track!

Thanks vegan I have used mfp a lot in the past - I guess I wanted the fredom of not tracking on nfds, but almost certainly have been overeating this week, so have got it all set up again and am raring to go. Just out of interest, do you have it set to maintain (ie;at your tdee) on nfds, or do you have it on a 'lose half a pound/2 pounds' setting?

dakota, I've got mine set to "maintain weight" as the calorie deficit comes on the FDs. I've been using it daily this time round since DS was 3 weeks old as writing it down does make me much more conscious of what I am eating.

It sounds like I am like vegan as I like numbers. I've got a Fitbit so make sure that I get 10,000 steps and 30 active minutes each day. I'm also very keen on the Happy Scale app. I know it doesn't work for everyone but I like to weigh daily and then the app smooths out the natural fluctuation and ups and downs so I can really clearly see the general downward trend.

Fasting today so will just try to keep myself busy before having an ordinary dinner with the family.

Was surprised that I wasn't ravenous this morning and just ate a normal breakfast. Quick question- I have a substantial commute which I do on the bike (it's about 20k) so far I have managed to avoid doing this on a fast day but next week it is impossible. I couldn't do it on 600 calories absolutely not a chance so wondering whether I give myself a 1000 calorie limit like I was bf. thoughts?

Wheelie If it's just one FD, can you move it to the weekend ?

If your 20km ride is actually 10km each way, you'd probably be fine on FDs - exercisers having overall "minus" calories on FDs is ok, but it depends on the type and duration of exercise

If it's 20 km each way, then that would be tough, especially when you are getting used to fasting:
prolonged cardio is the most difficult to sustain, as you would probably be relying heavily on glycogen stores for fuel, which would be depleted with 2 sessions in a day.

I suggest for that week you do mini-FDs, i.e. up to 1000 cals and be mindful on NFDs.

If your overall calorie deficit for the week remains the same as a normal 5:2 week (i.e. total intake minus total output) then you should continue losing at the same rate.

Having "minus" cals on FDs is not generally a problem with just 1 session of up 60 mins, especially if it's not steady state cardio.
e.g. I often do 90 mins HIIT or heavy lifting when fasted, either before eating on an NFD, or on an FD - so I burn well over 500 cals, like some others on these threads.
However, that type & intensity of exercise is usually better able to release bodyfat for fuel, so doesn't rely as heavily on glycogen.

Mosely suggests you aim to eat within TDEE on NFDs, where TDEE is calculated for one activity level lower than you think.

Some "hard losers" find they need to eat to sedentary TDEE even if exercising - either their body doesn't respond to exercise the same way as the rest of us, or their real TDEE has been reduced by previous dieting, meds etc.

Some folk, with a lot to lose, optionally choose to speed up loss by eating to the TDEE of goal weight on some NFDs, but best to have at least one NFD per week at current TDEE, for sustainability.
This is good training for maintenance at goal weight

Btw, if you are not hungry, there is no requirement to eat your full TDEE - some folk find fasting reduces appetite for a while, if they are easily accessing bodyfat stores for fuel.

I could move it to the weekend but I was miserable last weekend and it was hard with kids. I think I will move it to Friday. Something I'm not keen to do generally because I'm at home working and more involved with child care and I like to ease into weekend. My other alternative is doing back to back fasts. Anyone done that? It is 10k each way but I ride very fast. I might be able to get there eventually to do on a fast but not possible now. I would be beyond miserable currently

b2b is very tough and I wouldn't recommend it to newbies - just a few hard cases do it.
Friday FD sounds much better - just plan your meal(s) the day before, don't deviate from plan or eat the kids leftovers.

I'm not sure that 10k would be as tough as you fear, though - or is it up & down lots of steep hills ?
At a very easy pace, that would be under 30 mins ride on the gentle hills I have here.
Have you done the route before ?

It's London traffic. Very tricky journey.

Dakota I have mine set for lose 1/2 a pound because that makes it approximately right for my TDEE according to the calculator.

I have done b2b fasts a couple of times but found it really affected my mood. I was really short tempered and unpleasant and I didn't tend to lose as much on those weeks. I have found I am better off doing two mini fasts and one proper fast than two FDs b2b.

Kitchen closed at 560 today

I remember you, vegan - loved your post, what a brilliant story!

You’ve made me think I should change my username - perhaps to VeganBreadandwine!

Apart from the nut butters and tofu I eat pretty much the same as you - but I eat loads of seitan and I make my own wholemeal pasta.

Here are a few of my 5:2 vegan recipes.

I think veggies and vegans have a headstart with this WOL - we know all about low-cal veggie dishes, after all!

Good luck with the rest of your soon-to-disappear extra poundage!

Been meaning to say Hi to Persis!

And, I have a NSV of my own to report - I've finally got myself another hole in my belt - don't think I've lost any more weight, just that I've lost another inch or so off my waist.

Well done on your FD, olive

Congrats on the inches NSV, B&W You've burned some more fat around your middle - the best place to do so - and all those months of extra strength training have almost certainly built more muscle
Yoir body composition must be brilliant now

Finishing my fast day at 1020kcal.

This morning I checked a couple of things (I'm a scientist, I like numbers!). My bathroom scales tell me that I am 29.6% fat. Given that they are just bathroom scales, they are not likely to be incredibly accurate but it would be good to see the trend go downwards regardless.

I did measure my waist too. It was 106cm at about 6 weeks post partum and now 10 weeks later it is 92cm, so going the right way! Pre-babies, I used to have a lovely waist so hoping that I might see that again some day!

I reached my goal weight today! Weighed in at 9st 13.2lb (goal was 10st). I record my weight every Sunday morning as I'm following 16:8 rather than 5:2.

Anyway, as I'm 5ft6, my BMI is now 22.4. I've decided I could lose a few more lbs, so I've set a new goal of 9st 7lb, and once I've reached that I think I'll aim to stay between 9st7 and 9st10. Any weigh in over 9st10 will trigger a return to strict calorie counting. Does that sound reasonable BigChoc ?

It might take me a while to get there - I've been losing an average of 1lb per week for 3 months now, but we're going on holiday to the US for half term -leaving in 5.5 weeks. That might be interesting with their portion sizes...

Anyway, keep going everyone. Onwards and downwards!

Fantastic news Fasting well done

Woo! Well done fastingrocks great stuff!

Well done, fasting. That's amazing! Congratulations!

Thanks all

Congratulations on reaching goal, FastingRocks

Many folk, like you, decide they then want to set a further goal
If you are still losing around 1lb weekly, you could lose a few more lb if you wish. The USA hols will probably cause a blip, but just get straight back on 5:2 and you'll soon lose that

Your maintenance strategy of staying within a Happy Weight Range is just what we recommend.
You've probably learned to eat about TDEE without needing mfp any more. However, once you reach your Happy Range, you can experiment if you want to do say 6:1, to have a bit more scope on social occasions or weekends.

Whatever maintenance plan anyone chooses, I always recommend:

• keep a NO snacking or grazing policy
• stay within nhs alcohol guidelines (important for longterm health too)
• keep drinking lots of water
• have either a daily walk or more vigorous exercise 3 x weekly - including strength & cardio each at least 1x weekly
• weigh at least weekly on maintenance.

Countess I experimented with Tanita bathroom scales and found my bodyfat range changed 8% within 30 minutes so even the A/B comparison over the weeks is unreliable.

If you are really interested and flush (have a spare £100, crikey !), these scales give decent accuracy of % fat / muscle / bone / water.
They are wifi; they display these oparameters in graphical form over the last 8 readings, to show the trend and have some other fancy options.

Cheaper option, accurate to within +/- 3% is the BodyFat Calculator also under "How to Start" section of the OP. Note that the male & female options use different positions for waist - this is why there is often so much confusion about where to measure - it depends on which sex you are.