5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Knowler - B&W sometimes goes 24hrs before eating I believe (in maintenance)

I tend to have one main meal now of around 400 cals and then drinks / a snack a little earlier if needed - it means I'm extending the benefits of the fast time by making it longer between eating.

Welcome, Wizard, Allright and well done to you both on a good 1st FD

Wizard You are already within healthy BMi, so you won't see the exceptional 10-12 lb loss in the first week that a couple of folk had - they started at BMI 40+, iirc.
However, a couple of kg before your vacation is quite feasible if you eat sensibly on NFDs - eat meals, no snacks between - and keep within nhs alcohol guidelines.

I suggest your return to 5:2 right after your vacation and develop a maintenance plan, if your weight isn't naturally stable at your desired goal.

There is no need to try to hold out for hours before eating on the FD following an FD
the aim is for this WOE to be sustainable over the weeks & months, so it's best to avoid extremes, especially in the early weeks.

If you are hungry, have a sensible breakfast, with plenty of protein.
Most folk do that. Some experienced fasters folk wait until lunch, but only because that suits them.

Tips:

• Avoid fruit juice or eating a very large meal for breakfast, or whatever meal ends your fast - either could upset your stomach, which is not yet adapted to fasting.
• Also avoid sugary breakfast cereal, which can start a cravings spiral, especially with empty glycogen stores after an FD.

Zero-cal fasts
B&W sometimes does zero cals of 20-23 hrs, but then has his FD supper. So not a zero-cal FD
That's the system I recommend for anyone who wants to fast longer, to boost weight or health benefits.
It's similar to Brad Pilon's "Eat-Stop-Eat" IF system, except that he doesn't limit the supper cals

Knowler I recommend against zero-cal FDs, because longterm I would have some concerns about nutritional deficiencies or muscle loss with weekly FDs
(yes, I know the research that one-off 70 / 90 -hr fasts don't lose muscle, but a one-off is v different to a longterm fasting WOE)

Remember, we don't want to lose any old kind of weight, but specifically bodyfat.
Also, our top priority is longterm health.

This WOE is science-based and the human studies I have read for weekly fasting nearly all have 500 cals or more for FDs.
The only study I have seen comparing different %TDEE on FDs was by Varady, who compared 0 / 25% / 50% FDs:
She found 25% TDEE was the best balance between fat loss and muscle retention.

Even if your 25% TDEE is below 500, you should still aim for 500: Varadyand Mosely both found that in practice, even those with v low TDEE lose on the standard 500-cal FDs.
Sustainability is key and too low FDs tend to be less sustainable longterm.

Daisy The temporary hormonal changes at totm cause most women to retain a few lb water.
So long as you resist the ravaging munchies - also caused by those hormones ! - then that water should be released by your first fast after totm.
So, you should lose the totm blip plus probably have your standard weekly loss as well

Afternoon everyone. Hope everything goes smoothly for you Stripey
I've just got back from the hairdressers they had a local radio station on in the back ground and they played the new weight watchers ad 3 times when I was there.
It started by listing loads of "fad" diets at the start eg juice diet, cabbage soup and included 5:2 in the list then went on to say that ww would get you away from unhealthy diets.
I may have got a little cross and evangelical about 5:2, the stylists all seemed quite impressed though

Thanks bigChoc. The 0 cal idea didn't sit very well with me either, so makes sense. NFD has been good today so far, with just normal meals no snacking and lots of water. Here's to a good FD tomorrow.

That's reassuring, thank you BigChoc

Doing a FD tomorrow

Hi lovely 5:2'ers. Back after two weeks on holiday and a 3.5lb gain, damn you all inclusive! . How are you all?

But back on track to lose the final 8/9lbs. So back to bug you all with questions, sorry.

Snacking question- when you say no snacking on NFD, that means no Apple/banana between lunch and dinner? This bit I find quite hard, I can't see when you would ever eat an apple if not for a snack? Does it mean have a sandwich for lunch and then an apple straight away, don't wait an hour?

(I always thought an apple was healthy and low calorie, that's why I used that as an example)

I felt really tired and headachy last night after FD, went to bed 9:30 (had just got back from holiday so also tired from travelling and first day of work)

Youngest woke in the night and I woke up with a headache, settled him, then older one came in, settled her - then couldn't get back to sleep with headache - thought i was going to get a migraine so i had some cereal and water (not ideal but middle of night uninspired)

Think I need to eat mid afternoon at work (was trying to last until tea time - but don't think I can and still function!). So if i plan for eating at 2ish maybe 150cals (saving 350 for tea later). What would be good to take? Hardboiled egg and salad? (might be a bit over cals)

thanks bigchoc - the time and effort you put in here to help us all is amazing and much appreciated!

Seconding BigChoc support and advice, thank you

Thanks for the tips bigchoc I am definitely going to start again after the holiday too. Am debating whether to carry on, on the actual holiday but it's all inclusive so I'm probably lying to myself ha!

I had an apple for breakfast then a (big) chicken wrap for lunch. Thinking of making Wizards stew for tea.

Agree with all the posters below, thanks for your time and investment!

I desperately need to start this. I need to lose 3 stones to get back to my pre pregnancy weight (no excuse how DS is 2.9 almost).

Mrstumbletap I have the same question about lattes . Occasionally I have one in the afternoon (about once a week), but often wonder if this is cheating with the no snacking rule. I always have the skinny option, but it's still about 110 Cals.

MrsTumble, FastingRocks No Snacking means no calories, even "healthy" ones between meals.
Many folk on these threads have found that cutting out all snacks boosts their weight loss and helps them adapt better to fasting.

Any snack, especially fruit, will keep insulin raised between meals and hinder fat-burning.
Also, snacks usually increase the total calories consumed, because even if you eat slightly less the next meal, the saving is not usually as much as the snack.

In the "Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health" section near the end of the OP, I reference one of the scientific studies into this, which concluded that eating less often during the day is better than several small meals or snacks.

If you want a latte or fruit - or juice, alcohol, biscuits, cake etc - have it with a meal, say as dessert.
Greek yoghurt with fruit & nuts or seeds makes a decent breakfast.

Snacks may be useful for people who need to increase weight,
e.g. those underweight or male bodybuilders looking to bulk up (which is why some trainers still recommend several meals per day; they are applying what suits a very special group)

Mosely's Blood Sugar Diet Quiz "Are you addicted to carbs ?"
includes as possible symptoms of addiction:

• regularly consuming 3 or more portions fruit daily
• snacking or grazing.

His BSD was based on the brilliant research by Prof Taylor, which was sponsored by Diabetes UK - Taylor won their Banting award.
So, they know what they are talking about

It's really nice to hear folk find these threads useful
Other longterm maintainers (3 years +) like B&W and talkinpeace also help with practical tips, what works for them. We've all learned together and helped each other.

Also check out our 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 if you want advice in that area too.

Woodifer On FDs - to avoid headaches:

• Aim to drink 2l water - because you are obtaining less water from the reduced amount of food
• Have a teasp Marmite or tbsp unsweetened soy sauce (each are only 10 cals) to replenish salt & other minerals, also to boost B vits. Say at mid-morning and mid-afternoon.

Light FD salad meal with: Egg / smoked salmon / prawns or shrimps / tuna (tinned in brine not oil) / skinless chicken breast / cottage cheese.
To reduce calories, avoid avoid oily / creamy dressing - ideal is lemon juice or balsamic vinegar

Welcome, b0llocks
Loads of people have had success on these threads, some starting from BMI 40+
Plenty of info in the OP to start you off.

Today was supposed to be a fast day, but then we had visitors and I made and ate (and enjoyed so I'm not seeing this as a bad thing - this is a way of living, not a diet) some lovely cake, so I'm ending the day at 1343 kcal, so that's 1000 kcal BFing fast + cake, so I'm choosing to see this not as a failure!

Since I first posted on this thread about weight stagnating, I realise now it was all to do with my first post-baby period (in fact I can see that daisies is dealing with exactly the same thing), as I've lost 5lbs since then, so a good bit of it must have been water weight due to that and/or increased carbs etc over my holiday. That brings my total post-baby weight loss to just over 38 lbs!!! Goodness me, I just worked that out. Hey, I am really proud of myself!

Better get to bed as I'll be up in the night...

That's fantastic Countess

Fab news countess, well done!

FD here for a Thursday, and I'm really looking forward to it (I'm a bit weird like that )

Good luck to anyone else fasting today

I've not had a loss this week so I've stayed the same. I'm not panicking though as I've read that it's quite normal not to have a loss every week.

Great loss Countess. That truly is amazing

FD today, usually see a loss the day after but not expecting to because of the TOTM. At least it keeps me in the rhythm of fast days!

thanks bigchoc

trying to plan my FD slots round training now

Well done Countess!

Just did the Mosely 'Am I addicted to Carbs?' and I answered using my old way of eating (that is still wrestling with me) said I am severely addicted to carbs! TBH it is nothing that I didn't expect. I also did it putting in how I've been eating the past while since on 5:2 and it says I may be addicted to carbs which although not great is better.

Started off with a omelette this morning, thought about a mini FD but think I need a week without one to put me back on an even keel.

Good luck to all Thurs fasters!

FD for me today and decided to take a slightly different approach - I've been planning to save all my cals for the evening but have found this pretty challenging. So I've started the day with 2 poached eggs on 1 small slice of wholemeal toast and am feeling good. Will save my remaining 200 cals for this evening when I'm going to have some prawns and salad. Hopefully I will find this a bit less painful than not eating for the whole day.