5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Olive

If you have a lot to lose, don't worry about that rate at all. Like BigChoc says, I lost at a rate of 3lb a week every single week for the first two stone. I then had a couple of weeks plateau before continuing at 2lb a week for another stone or so.

I've had a rocky summer being all over the place (MUST MUST sort a better plan for next years summer holidays) and am just getting back to it properly now, but expect another 2lb a week to continue until I'm closer to a healthy weight.

Ok it was just I had such a big loss last week at 7lb and then the 3 this week when it had been 2lb most weeks before

Wow, I wish I could lose 10-12lb in the first week!

Just had my FD breakfast of two boiled eggs.

Going to nail this today

So encouraging to read the threads and see it working for you all! Can I do this without scales do you think?
Also how do I gauge calories with home cooked food?

It can work without scales Nom - do regular measurements of your waist, bust and hips.

Home cooked food is a bit difficult to gauge. I guess you could make an approximation by working out the calories for each ingredient. I tend to eat very simply on fast days.

MyFitnessPal is useful for keeping a track of calories.

Hi Nom as Hey says take measurements and you should also start feeling clothes baggier. WRT to home cooked food, I put it all in MFP, it can be a bit faffy but once you've got your regular recipes saved it makes life a lot easier.

FD2 today and I am cold, brr! Just having my lunch of popcorn and yogurt and an emergency can of pepsi max.

Good luck to all Fasters!

Ooh I'm on my second ever FD today. Did first whilst on holiday (but only one that week). Then I just didn't eat until tea time, try do same today.

At work today - had black coffee, water and coke zero so far.

Have a pure chicken noodle pot (ready meal thing) at home which is 350 calories. Going to see if I can make it until i get home. But have some rice cracker things in case of emergency. At work today, should be home for 6:30.

Current stats (that i know) are:

weight 67.8kg
height: 167cm (5'6")

Would love to get to 63kg (or even 60) - don't know how it will go because I am in the healthy BMI range.

Also I love long bike rides - so need to juggle fastdays with training (tried a long ride, day after fast day last time on holiday was disaster - well felt really hard).

Oops. Had 600 calories instead of 500, oh well.

Just enjoy the quick boost, Olive
That one-off 7lb sounds like the classic "whoosh" of emptying water from fat cells (sometimes after fat is burned, the fat cells refill with water which may remain for days or even weeks, until your body is ready to release it)

That's a good 2nd FD, Woodifer Sounds like you are quickly getting the hang of fasting.

FDs, NFDs & exercise:

Long bike rides are exactly the kind of very prolonged low-medium intensity activity which are the most difficult on an FD or the day after. Similar issues with prolonged running or swimming.

This is because the FD has reduced your glycogen stores, which is what fuels low intensity exercise.
So, both on an FD or the following day, you'll experience an early "bonk"
(for those who don't do long distances, this "bonk" has nothing to do with nooky !)

What works best with fasting is high intensity exercise, usually 30-60 mins, such as HIIT, lifting, martial arts, spin class.
As people get used to fasting, they can usually extend this time to 90 mins.

It may take several weeks for your body to adapt to long bike rides. Also, even experienced fasters can't 5:2 if their training is just too tough

e.g. our Anglaise is a v experienced maintainer who is a brilliant long distance runner.
She doesn't 5:2 while training for an event, because she can't get the highest performance level she needs for the length of time she needs it.

Alternatives:

• Have FDs as restdays.
  The NFD after each, do sprint intervals and / or strength training, for no more than 60 mins total including warmup & cooldown.
  Do your long bike rides on NFD2-3

• Be patient, see if you adapt within a few weeks. Start with much shorter rides on NFD1 (until you feel tired but not shattered) and gradually build up distance.
  If you are not competitive, you may find you can achieve a sufficient standard for leisure rides.

• Instead of 5:2, or at least while your body is adapting, try 3 mini-FDs of 1000 cals on Mon+Wed+Fri.
  This should theoretically achieve similar weight loss to 5:2 if your TDEE is around 2000, but will be slower for lower TDEE.

• Do daily 16:8, instead of 5:2, i.e. skipping either breakfast or supper, to achieve a daily calorie deficit without FDs.

Nom Just go by clothes fit, e.g. choose a top and a skirt / jeans that are too tight now - or even impossible to get near doing up - and see how the fit changes

I didn't have anything during the day except water and black coffee but once i'd started eating in the evening it was difficult to stop. Came in at about 750-800cals which was a bit frustrating after being so focussed during the day.

how do I gauge calories with home cooked food?

When I was 5:2ing, my goto FD meal was always a veg curry - a saucepanful of half a dozen 'in season' veg, plus a tin of tomatoes and herbs and spices. Sometimes I'd have 100g broccoli instead of carbs, sometimes I'd have 100g microwaved potato with it.

I used to measure the cal count religiously, but eventually realised that 1 serving spoon of this was always roughly 30 cals - and I could only ever eat 6-7 serving spoonfuls. If I did want extra, which I rarely did, another spoonful = 30 cals. No probs.

There are a number of my curry recipes on the 5:2 recipe thread - and also on my blog. My record low-cal curry was under 100 cals - which was still very filling.

Will check your recipes Bread

Ooh thanks for the alternative suggestions Choc

Moring everyone, weigh in today and I'm 0.2lb up from last time but am happy it's not a larger gain. So it feels almost like a loss! Good motivation to be more mindful on NFDs this week.

Good luck to all Wed fasters and good luck Stripey with part 2 of your dental work

Hello! I started doing this on Monday, first fasting day was yesterday. I had a butternut squash and chorizo stew thing for lunch and a stir fry(dry fry) with tuna for dinner. I came in at 523 calories which I'm pretty happy with. I was definitely ready for breakfast but not half as hungry as I thought I'd be, even though I underate on Monday a bit (well, I say underate - I had two servings of the same chorizo stew and couldn't fit another thing in. So hardly starved).

Next fasting day is Thursday - I'm not exactly looking forward to it but I know it's achievable and I won't feel deprived. It's only one day so I can have whatever I want the next day if need be. I think this actually is going to work for me!

waves to alrightarekid if she's here :)

Hi wizard!! 

Hi all!! Good morning!!

Thanks for the link to this thread bigchoc

Like wizard I started on Monday and did my first fast day yesterday. I came in at 497 I think and had the following:

1 X Apple
Side salad and 100g prawns
400g of soup (low fat fresh carton thing)
1 X plain low fat activa yogurt
3 X green tea
1 X black coffee

I am going to keep up the fast until lunch (had a black coffee, with a sugar this morning). Do people recommend holding out as long as possible the day after?

I ran a slow 5k at 19:00 which I found easier than I thought but am worried about my training plan as I progress. I'm training for an event in October and have to run for 40 minutes tonight about 45 on Saturday (both interval style) and a long (10 mile) slow on Sunday. I read a thread somewhere else by an ultra runner guy who reckons that the 5:2 doesn't affect any training he does as long as it's under 16k. I find that a bit hard to believe, does any one have any experience of this and can you give me any tips?

Oh sorry! Forgot to add, I'm 5"3 and 59kilo. I'd like to get to 57 ahead of my holiday (2 weeks today wahey). Is this realistic?

Hi all,
Checking in for my first ever fast day - I've been doing 16:8 for 3 months now, and got down from 11st to 10st 1 (I'm 5ft 6). As my weight has dropped it's made it harder to get a good calorie deficit with 16:8 alone, so I've decided to try adding in a fast day, and also making one day "an eat to TDEE day" each week as recommended by BigChoc, as I've been losing weight for more than 2 months. I'm planning on just having tea/coffee with skim milk (as well as water) throughout the day - I've got 50cals worth of milk measured out, which I reckon will do 5 cups, then having 450cals for dinner. I will miss my nightly cup of Highlights
Keep going everyone, and I hope things are still going well with your teeth stripey

Thanks bigchoc I will use clothes fit as that's what has prompted me to try this. Yesterday I had a tea and a black coffee then at 4 (lunch? Should have had it earlier?) a thin dry piece of toast with some feta and artichokes from a jar. Then dinner was a small portion homemade baked beans, 3sm bits chorizo, half a plain baked potato. Can of diet ginger ale too. Felt I could have had less really. Looking forward to normal breakfast and to FD again tomorrow

Thanks bigchoc, I will use clothes fit as that's what has prompted me to start this. Yesterday I had a tea and a black coffee then at 4 (lunch? Should have had it earlier?) a thin dry piece of toast with some feta and artichokes from a jar. Then dinner was a small portion homemade baked beans, 3sm bits chorizo, half a plain baked potato. Can of diet ginger ale too. Felt I could have had less really. Looking forward to normal breakfast and to FD again tomorrow

Does time of the month affect weight loss? I have been losing regularly every week and now no weight loss.

Thanks Jing, feeling more brave today I may not be saying that later tho. I think the worst is over.

It's so refreshing to see so many people here enjoying there holidays and not being body conscious all shapes and sizes men and women as well and everyone bar 2 in bikinis.

I wore a swimming costume on my first day but I didn't know it had a underwire bra and was uncomfortable so I wore a thicker bikini the 2ndday but refused to take off my shorts. I'm today sat in my triangle small bikini that I only bought for halter tops with no intention to actually wear out.

If you can't beat them join them. Good luck to all the fasters today

Daisies - yes definitely! Some even gain just before they are due.

Forgot to check in last night, but a very successful FD done. Came in at 490 plus about 3 litres of water and a short run. Happy me! Meal was a chicken tikka biryani ready meal from sainsburys be good to yourself.

16:8 this morning (no breakfast) so just on the water right now and will have a main meal at lunchtime (head office is a long day) and a smaller one with the DC tonight.

Tomorrow is next FD and I'm going to have the singapore noodles and lime / chilli / ginger chicken from waitrose for my meal... I bought it last night and can't wait already!

Hi all, was supposed to be FD today, but have woken up feeling terrible. Very coldy and achy after crap night's sleep thanks to DS2, so have postponed til tomorrow. I couldn't have concentrated on the FD properly so rather than do it half heartedly, I'll do it tomorrow when I can give it my all.

Does everyone eat 500cals (or 25% TDEE) on FDs, or does anyone not have anything? It sounds a bit hardcore to me, but then it would definitely rule out any possibility of me overdoing it!

Thank you OohMrDarcy - I can stop feeling disappointed then!

Have to be patient for the next week or so I think

knowler I usually eat 500 cals on FD spread over two meals - lunch and dinner. That works for me.