5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning all. Thanks for the warm welcome and all the info BCF, you are most certainly a fountain of knowledge!

I am struggling today. I am on my second of two back to back FDSs. Not what I would have planned but its been a rubbish week. I usually just have a small salad for lunch and then a chicken breast and a big salad for my dinner and that's enough to get me through. Today though I am really hungry and they didn't have my usual 95cal salad in the shop so I bought a packet of turkey breast and some raspberries for my lunch. Hopefully that will fill me up until my chicken salad tonight. I also have a bottle of cherry Pepsi max which I am just about to open. If it gets too bad I will have a 65cal cup a soup.

I really hope I have lost this week! Good luck to all those on FDs today.

I will be glad to go back to Tues/Thurs FDs next week!

Good luck with your FD2, Maclairey many folk find b2b too tough, so don't worry if it turns into a mini-FD (sub-1000)
Btw, good news: for b2b we recommend you increase to 650 cals, based on the research done by Michelle Harvie (sponsored by breast cancer charities) for her b2b version of 5:2

That was probably a good NFD in your case, Jing I recommend eating up to your real TDEE on at least one NFD per week and an extra 200 cals on that day is fine with a high TDEE - because your weekly deficit is higher than average anyway
This weekly full TDEE day boosts nutrients, helps reduce stress and psychologically makes this WOE sustainable longterm.

For those who have been in the weight loss phase for more than 2 months, I recommend this weekly day to avoid dialling back metabolic rate - which may happen with very longterm dieting, NOT with short term.
Also important for those dieting longterm to check they are eating reasonably healthily, with not much junk, to avoid nutrient deficiencies.

Clear Many people lose on 5:2 without mfp, even guesstimating the FDs, just eating sensibly.
That's the ideal, which everyone would prefer.

I only suggest it for those who don't progress like this, or who are in a hurry and don't want to first try without.
If anyone decides they need to mfp, this would only be for as long as necessary to retrain habits.

Even if you never want to count calories, if you basically sts for 3+ weeks, then I recommend you just calculate one typical NFD, as a quick check on whether you need a major change in what you eat & drink, to be around TDEE.
It can save months of stress and wasted time

Hi all, just popping in with a question as its a NFD for me today but worked out my goal weight TDEE - so the TDEE for my goal weight 9.5 stones works out at 1591 calories. So I eat this much for one day a week on my NFD and eat to my current weight for the other NFDs? (10 stones with the TDEE being 1640). Have I got this right?

Wrong eat to the goal weight TDEE (1591) for all my NFDs except one when I eat to my current weight (1640)... Gosh this is all very new to me !

House Don't worry about such details - only people with a few stone to lose need consider goal TDEE calculations
For you, just average roughly 1600-1700 over the week on your NFDs and you'll be fine.
btw, Many folk like to eat below TDEE during the week, to allow extra at weekends

1500 - 1700 < cleans specs >

Another 200 cals under tdee nfd today although I have snacked a bit this evening. Need to try and curb that...

FD planned for tomorrow then at outlaws on sat for dinner so no idea what's on menu which is why I've saved 550cals mil is a bit of a feeder especially if she knows I'm on a diet lovely huh

Hi there. Would it be ok if I join you? I've tried 5:2 in the past and might even have posted a couple of times on this board but, as ever, fell off the wagon. I feel like I'm constantly gaining and losing the same 10lbs by mucking about with loads of different diets and I just want to get to grips with one and stick with it. But I'm there again, I've started this, lost 10lbs and now feel myself starting to wobble. Pleeeease help me stay on track!!!

I'm 44 years old, 5'3" and am currently 12 stones, having dropped 10lbs (again) over the last 5/6 weeks. My TDEE is 1650 but it try and stick to 1500 cals per day so I can build in a little treat at the weekend.

Honestly, food-wise I can do this. I don't struggle on FDs and eat well on my non-FDs. I know my problems are psychological and I just get more and more frustrated with myself when I self-sabotage or binge or just get lazy and complacent

I am struggling to find the energy and enthusiasm to exercise at the moment. I have in the past got up in the morning and done HIIT sessions, the Shred or Pilates. I'm starting a bodycamp class next week and I go to yoga during term time.

Don't know what I'm looking for really? A bit of advice and support but mostly am hoping that by writing it all down there'll be some accountability on my part. That I might be able to identify where my weaknesses are and, beyond anything, see this through for once.

Just a quick check in as I finish my 2nd fast of the week at 1043 kcal. TOTM as well, so I'm pleased. Can hear DS calling me though for his nighttime feed..

How you doing countess ?

Thanks bigchoc .. I'll try to remember that when I get myself all worked up next time!

It's been a NFD for me and I've eaten as normal with no snacks at all. ... It's hard to track the calories on mfp though because lots of it is homemade food made from scratch. Does anyone else get this?? How do you get around that? I'm just logging the bits that I can so for example I had a keema sandwich for lunch, so logged the two slices of bread and since the keema was homemade, I just went according the mfp suggestion of 175g (half a serving) homemade keema totalling to 225 calories.
Then I had dinner at the in laws so did the same... My total calories has come up to 1058... Which is way less than the 1500-1600 you suggested bigchoc... Even if I underestimated by a couple of hundred calories.

Also, I don't feel like I'm on a diet!

Welcome, footballmum and well done on your SV.
A few suggestions to help you stay on track:

• First, pat yourself on the back for losing 10lb and look at the photo: you lost TWO of those bricks

• You can lose a few more bricks now - split up your goal into chunks of 5 or 10 lb, so you can enjoy the rolling successes of hitting each milestone.
  Post here; we celebrate all our milestones

• Monitor waist & weight every 2 weeks, not just scales.
  Set milestones for each inch of bodyfat burned from your waist or hips
  With 5:2 - since it protects lean muscle - you may notice your clothes are looser as your shape changes, before major changes on the scales

• Visualise yourself at goal, how you'll have more energy, what you want to do.
  Play with these 3d body visualisers from the OP: 3D BMI and Bod Vis

• Write down your reasons for wanting to lose weight and recite them to yourself whenever you feel like giving up

• Concentrate on improving one part of your WOL at a time, instead of all at once.
  It's easier.
  Exercise is important for health, but has far less effect on weight: weight loss is 80-90% diet even for most gym rats.
  So, concentrate on 5:2 and for exercise just aim for a walk most days, which is sufficient for basic health needs and is relaxing psychologically.
  You may feel after a break from trying to force yourself to the gym that you would enjoy building in more intense exercise later, when you are closer to goal.
  Maybe ease into yoga or Zumba.
  Or maybe you'll just stick to walks; relax and don't think about it any more.

• Plan your days so you get enough sleep - being constantly tired both reduces willpower and increases the urge to eat mindlessly

Well done on cutting out snacks, house It'll also help your body adjust to fasting.
That's excellent you are eating normally, well under TDEE without feeling you are dieting.

You may be one of those who find fasting resets appetite & metabolism, so you naturally eat what your body needs on NFDs - and don't need mfp.
If you feel safer with mfp for now, just plug in your ingredients and save each dish, so you can refer back the next time you eat this.

Thank you bigchoc I'll definitely put in the ingredients next time and build my own dishes so I know exactly what I'm eating on a typical day. I think I do feel safer at the moment using mfp, only so it feels like I'm protecting my fast days and hopefully see some loss soon!

Hmmm, you're probably right about fasts resetting my appetite (and also about snacks making me hungry) because today I've just not been very hungry at all.

The only worry I have is , since it doesn't feel like a diet, will I actually lose anything ?! I hope so and only time will tell.

Welcome to the newbies! countess how come your fast day calories are much higher than mine as I remember you saying we're the same height and body frame? Do everyone's fast day calories differ according to their weight?

And the picture of that lump of fat being the same as the weight of a brick

Thanks BigChoc that's brilliant. Lots to think about! Have maintained this week but ill take that as I know I'd started to slip. I've been logging my cals on MFP which is great because it syncs with my Fitbit. It's interesting what you say about walking and the relaxation side of things. Other than yoga I never think of exercise as relaxing and it's something I really need. I struggle with stress and anxiety (über stressful job!) which affects my sleep. I will definitely give that a go next week.

Non-FD today and am meeting a friend for dinner after work. Plan is to eat light, porridge for breakfast and a salad for lunch so I have a bit of flexibility when I get to the pub. I'm driving so no wine which helps!

house I think it's because countess is breastfeeding? FD today and just got to train station, I'm hungry already 🙁 it's going to be a long day!

Morning all

TDEE is determined by height, weight, age & activity level, not BF (which is accounted for by the 700-1000 FD allowance)

btw, You need to recalculate TDEE for every stone or so you lose, because your smaller body needs fewer calories to maintain
Some people manage to really ramp up exercise, to maintain TDEE
However, if you lose several stone, you will almost certainly have to adjust to eating quite a lot less.

Oh and TDEE also depends on sex - a man of the dame height will have higher TDEE, due to different body composition (far higher % muscle) and hormones (tendencies: testosterone burns fat, estrogen stores it)

oops, did i say the wrong thing? I thought high FD cals for countess was because of BFing?? Apologies

Morning all!! Well I managed a 2lb loss this week so I am thrilled with that. 6lb off in 3 weeks is a good feeling. I couldn't abstain from breakfast this morning like I usually do after a FD because of having 2 back to back FDs. I am going to cut myself some slack today and then get back to 16:8 tomorrow hopefully. Good luck to all the Friday fasters!

I had a good non fast day yesterday and had a treat of hard sticky sweets (my last ever due to my cosmetic work on my teeth next week) but made them part of my meal. I couldn't enjoy them due to my fillings that needed replacing hurting too much so ate half and put them in the bin.

I'm actually -1lb today taking me back to where I was last week. This seems to be a particular sticky weight that I just can't stay at or fall below but FD today and if I'm really good I think I should be very close to my target.

Start weight of LC diet: 11stone 12.8
Start weight of 5:2: 9stone 9.8
Current weight: 9 stone 2.8

Target to reach a 3 stone loss: 8st12

Hello, didn't have a good day on Wednesday although did a HIT class in the morning. Yesterday had fasted for 16 hours, did a HIT class and Pilates class in the morning and had about 720 calories which I know isn't a proper fast but it was all I had in over 36 hours. Didn't sleep well last night and was irritable, must have been the hunger! So at least it's a start, probably did too much exercise on a FD. It's the first fast day since June! Will have NFD today and working all weekend 12 hour shifts so will try again next week. Good luck everyone X

house, doineed, yes, I am doing 1000 kcal FDs because I am EBFing. DS is now 7.5kg at 3 months so I can lift him and think "I've lost twice this so far!" I am eating to my TDEE + some exercise calories on NFDs.

thisisplanetearth, well done on the first fast day since June. I've found that over the first few FDs, I can't exercise much but then everything seems to reset and I can manage fine. I am on larger FDs at the moment though so that probably helps!

zebra, that's an excellent weight loss over time. How long has that taken you? Well done.

Countess - I was on low carb for 3 months solid. No breaks, no cheats. With no sugar, alcohol or carbs.

And I've been doing 5:2 for 7 weeks now.

My biggest loss was 4lbs in my first week of LC but as I knew I was going on it I did have a good binge before hand but the rest of the time I've had steady 1-2lbs off a week but it all mounts up.

The only worry I have is , since it doesn't feel like a diet, will I actually lose anything ?! I hope so and only time will tell.

If you stick with it and adopt it as a way of life then it really will work :-) I lost 34lb back in 2012 (waves to original thread friends). I honestly now eat whatever I want and simply compensate for over indulgence with some very light eating days. I'm now another 6lbs down on that (having read the BSD book I'm addressing the issue of fat around the middle! ).

My normal pattern is 16:8 during the week - weekends I have indulgent breakfasts while reading the paper :-). Some of those 16:8 days will be low cal - others won't. It depends on the day.

What's changed things for me is realising that I should not be eating low fat, I should be eating "real food, mainly plants". I now have interesting oils (like pumpkin and sesame) in my salad dressings, not the cal free rubbish. I have butter not low cal spread ..... Etc. I'm not on a diet, I've found out how to eat normally

Good luck to those just starting out - four years on and it really doesn't feel like an effort - I think for me that kicked in when I'd got to target and maintained for a month or so, now it's just how I live

Yesterday had fasted for 16 hours, did a HIT class and Pilates class in the morning and had about 720 calories which I know isn't a proper fast but it was all I had in over 36 hours.

I think that's very much "a proper fast" - my advice is don't get stuck in a mental model of success and failure wrt fast days - that's the diet mentality which leads to the "oh sod it might as well have the cake" moment.

The actual calories are really not important - it's the big reduction (I would say up to a 1000 cals is a fast day, personally, though I aim for a lot less) and the time spent without food that seems to be key. Your 16:8 is a success! I didn't count calories, after 40 yrs trying to lose weight I could recite most values off by heart . I just did sensible, plant rich, meals on fast days and avoided carbs. A friend of mine did vegan days for her fast days and that had the effect of reducing calories without counting.