5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning everyone!
Can't seem to get to log in on a Wed (day off).
Clear and Persis don't kick yourselves over your little blips, Clear you've had a great loss since starting and you can see yourself starting to overeat - that's half the battle to stopping it! And Persis you're BF, I think it's amazing you can even think about doing 5:2 while doing that. Keep it up girls!
BigChoc I wasn't wanting to cut out caffeine on FD per se, it's just that I was drinking 1200ml Pepsi Max Cherry a day on my FD and I had to nip it in the bud. I take sugar in my tea and don't drink coffee so it was my only caffeine intake on FD and I wasn't happy about it. Monday was hard but Tuesday was fine so sure I can carry that on.
BreadandWine you are so inspiring! 3yrs at maintenance is amazing!

Wed was weigh day for me and 1.8lb down which puts my BMI at 34.99, happy with that. Also was measurement day and in the past 4 weeks (since starting) I've lost 1cm from my neck and 2cm from hips, which made me very happy I have huge hips! Still planning on a mini FD today, up early this morning so I hope my willpower doesn't fall asleep!

Good luck to all fasters today

Ha! Lack of sleep has made me put a line through all you names rather than make them bold - clever me!

Morning everyone,

Thursday FD here, and I started it last night by getting a pint of water by my bed before I went to sleep, which I then drank before getting out of bed - inspired!

I went slightly over TDEE yesterday but I'm not too worried.

Jings, well done on the SV - and BMI band change! It always a good feeling.

Persis - don't worry about a little slip, just acknowledge and move on.

b&w you've done ace, I'll have a read of your blog later, thanks!

pooch , I wouldn't worry about a little milk - especially if you're counting the cals on it!

Welcome back, carrot and congrats on your new baby
You are back really soon after birth, so take it very gently.
1000 cal FDs, maybe just one per week for a while. Don't worry about getting down to 700
Later on, I advise against 500 if BFing, because reports from other BFers suggest this can lead to ravenous bingeing on NFDs.

Persis You were hungry on an NFD, so you did well to have a healthy meal. Absolutely no arse-kicking required assuming you didn't wash it down with a bottle of wine and have choc cake for pud
Yes, sounds like you need to boost protein on FDs.
Also, make sure your first meal on the following NFD has plenty of protein.

Congrats on your SV, Jing You are now in a lower BMI class - that's an important milestone
Good luck on your mini-FD.
If you keep drinking water today and don't let tiredness lead you to snacks, you'll do well.
You did well to step back from 1.2 litre -toilet cleaner cherry pepsi. I'd assumed you meant a single can.

Annielostit - where are you seeing this? I had checked here and it says 166 cals for large slice..

How often are people measuring and weighting??

Summer In your 4-6 pm danger hour , are you able to do a 20 min HIT exercise routine, like Shred. That vigorous exercise normally reduces appetite (whereas medium intensity hiking, running or swimming may increase hunger)

Cheeky The shock to your system is mainly provided by the 500 cal FDs, which forces your body to burn fat.
Most people are eating at least 1200 cals on most NFDs, which is sufficient contrast.
The overwhelming cause of sts / slow loss is OVER-eating on NFDs.
What helps many folk is eating 2-300 below TDEE during the week and then eating above TDEE Saturday & Sunday.
The 1-2 weekly NFDs on TDEE or above keeps BMR high for those who need to lose weight over several months.

Only those who were on 1200 cals daily on a previous diet for more than 2 months need to check they eat up to TDEE - because their BMR may already have been lowered by that.

Otherwise, if you aren't hungry for a few days, only then don't force yourself to eat. Just drink water. Sometimes your body just wants to burn fat or go into repair mode.

Remember: some people do ADF, which is 500 cals every other day and they lose more quickly than on 5:2 - but it's tougher to do.
Also, those on the BSD which is 8 weeks of daily 800 low carb cals lose far more quickly than on ADF or 5:2.

Cheeky People weigh and measure everything daily until they are confident they know how to eat within TDEE.
Some folk never need to do this, because they naturally eat about the right amount.
You could just try eating mindfully on NFDs for a couple of weeks - if you are losing ok, no need to change anything. If not, then train yourself with mfp.

Just a quick note to say I definitely can second what BCF says about ravenous binging on NFDs with 500 cal FD whilst BF. My baby is 9 months and only has 3-4 feeds a day but I was not able to sustain it with 500 cal FDs and interestingly the weight has gone down more quickly on 700 cal FDs.

BCF, MrD, jings thanks .
Was going to fast today to make up for it but actually will just go for a nice TDEE NFD. And I'm going to body pump late

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=corporate.dominos.co.uk/Media/Default/CSR/Nutritional%2520info%2520-TAFL/Nutritional%2520Info%2520-%2520May%25202014-1.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj9oYzus9nLAhWDRQ8KHVqSB3gQFgghMAE&usg=AFQjCNHnt3HR7gwdVJg4n8YQMTqoMxAhtA&sig2=OlRqs5HiSKc_xQqYRbRJOA" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=corporate.dominos.co.uk/Media/Default/CSR/Nutritional%2520info%2520-TAFL/Nutritional%2520Info%2520-%2520May%25202014-1.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj9oYzus9nLAhWDRQ8KHVqSB3gQFgghMAE&usg=AFQjCNHnt3HR7gwdVJg4n8YQMTqoMxAhtA&sig2=OlRqs5HiSKc_xQqYRbRJOA

See if this opens cheeky, if not Google domino's nutrition, it comes up with dominos corporate nutrition with a 30 page PDF file of all the pizzas.x

FD here today. But have already consumed my 500 calories, which is perhaps not a good start. Went on bike and burnt 500 (calibrated heart rate monitor thing). So whilst you are not supposed to eat back exercise perhaps a slight overeat on 500 will balance out. Can only cycle on work from home days and am ravenous afterwards. Just bad timing.

As an aside think i may have to move to 4:3 after Èaster hols. I really struggle to be good on NFD's. I can usually be good on FD with little problem. But psychologically have a sense of freedom on NFD. If i am to restrict would feel resentful of the whole process. So a third day may balance it out so i still get a good deficit? And my brain is fully accepting of a good day.

bring I was thinking that....but instead I think I may move one of my FDs to the weekend (whichever day looks more "dangerous") and make sure I MFP every NFD except whichever weekend day I don't fast. I know if I have to MFP everything I don't eat as much as I am too lazy to bother and also often get an unpleasant shock when what I have been thinking of as a fairly benign treat turns out to be a calorie bomb (costa muffin, I am looking at you!!). But I need a day off of MFP as it sends me crazy so hopefully this will be a reasonable balance!!

That is certainly a good plan persis but i am not sure it would work for me. I am embarassed to say when it comes to dieting i am a bit like a spoilt defiant child. As the cals mount up i just stop logging and go into denial! I think the only way to save myself would be to bank the additional 1500 from a third day. It is very bizarre as i really dont begrudge the Fast, just the being good on NFD's.

Hopefully the exercise will help too, although i am going to be forced into running again for a couple of weeks (cant take the bike on holz). Running and me never seem to end well .

at spoilt defiant child!! That's me too!! So that's what my Saturdays are going to be for!! And all the time MFP is pissing me off by warning me about how much salt or whatever I have eaten I will get my revenge by NOT DRINKING ANY WATER on my NFDs (disclaimer: I will, I just won't tell MFP). That will teach it a lesson, smug little app that it is!!

Every dieter knows BRING, if we don't log it it doesn't count, then it's the diets fault when the pounds stay on. Story of my life. & dangerous days are the ones with a 'y' in!!

Thanks, that's interesting about 500 vs 700 cals. I'm not in a rush to reduce them, will just see how it goes. I might do just one FD next week as well.

Ended up having 900 yesterday and I'm 3 lbs down this morning, yay!

You show that smug app who is boss peris . And you are right annie we cannot be held accountable to a faulty diet .

Managed to hold firm on pick up despite it being cake sale day - i was tempted to justify it as my moral duty to help the school, but instead i shall have a glass of water and dry out. [Note to self - you do have a car and are allowed to use it when its peeing it down with rain]

FD here and struggling today as off work with ds... so much easier to do FD when in the office, hoping I can hold out 😊

persis I always swear at mfp when it tells me off... glad it's not just me that has an issue with an app

Good luck fellow Thursday fasters, hope you are having an easier time of it than me 😀

Carrot If 500 cal FDs cause bingeing on NFDs and 700 cals don't, then your overall calorie deficit is better with 700 FDs.
It is usually how you cope on NFDs that determines how well you lose on 5:2

Hang in there, need You are strong and you can do this FD

wrt NFD overeating:
4:3 is a useful way to speed up weight loss for a particular social event / holiday BUT it should NOT be used to compensate for regular major overeating on NFDs.

Intermittent Fasting is healthy. Intermittent Fasting / Bingeing is NOT

You need to use the weight loss period to train yourself to eat within TDEE. If you have a lot to lose, then recalculate TDEE at least after every stone lost.

What is your maintenance plan ?
If you intend to 5:2 the rest of your life, then losing on 4:3 is a possible strategy.
If not, then even if you reach goal on 4:3, the weight will come right back and all your work has been wasted.
Even those of us maintaining longterm on 5:2 must eat within TDEE sometimes, to lose a few lb after holidays.

Losing weight is only the first battle for a healthy weight. Maintaining is what really counts
Don't be a yoyo !

That's true BCF about yoyo otherwise what's the point?!?! I obviously eat more than TDEE or I wouldn't have been overweight in the first place. So I think these last few weeks of mat leave I need to think a bit more about TDEE on the NFD. For me it is the portion control but I have been mindful of annies rules today so hopefully can start getting a bit better. Also have started weighing things.

Go need

Thanks bcf and persis for the encouragement 😀 loving the cheerleader dance 😆

Does anyone have any advice for my mum about 5:2? She has only a couple of stone to lose but she is inspired by me . The thing is she tends to get migraines if she gets tired and hungry so she's not sure how it will work out. Anyone got any experience of fasting with migraine?

Oh, and she is coeliac but I'm not sure that would make any difference!