5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning all

NFD here, but planning on just water until lunch still so I get that nice long period with 0 cals again, it feels good.

b&w - that is an amazing NSV! I can't wait for the day I'm posting the same Out of curiosity did you have much to lose when you started or was it more for the health benefits?

Clear - you can do this - we've all been there, and god knows I used to be an emotional eater! But you are doing so well - keep yourself busy and drink some water, and before you know it those feelings will be passing .

Clear skies....at least you are aware of the temptations of mindless snacking & your trigger....that's half the battle I'd say!! I hope your stress eases up soon.

FD here for me....I woke up starving though so it's going to be a loooong day I think. I'm not able to have a lunch and dinner, it works better for me to just have a substantial evening meal so I will be keeping myself busy until 5.30!!!

Well done on all the successes so far everyone and good luck Wednesday fasters

clear me too. Family can be so stressful. I am actually planning to fast on the days I will be seeing the stressful people as I think I will find it easier to eat nothing than to try and eat in moderation. You have done brilliantly, brilliantly well, and when we are all at our targets we will have a big thread reunion and go an virtually have a spa day to treat ourselves. I also plan to make an effort with hair, nails etc (shaved legs even though I will be wearing trousers, that's v unusual for me ) so I feel good about myself.

Post on here. I'll be lurking. We will get through it together

2nd FD for me -quite a busy day and out at school thing tonight so hopefully that will be a distraction.
Bought scales yesterday -last ones broke when I moved house- totally committed to this between now and mid July when I'll be on holiday. I have a couple of stressful work events in that time so will need support. Good luck to others re starting this week!

Hi everyone,

I've been on this thread before, but got pg with DC2 so had to stop. DD is 3.5 weeks now, which is still very early, but I've put on 3st during pregnancy and would like to see them gone sooner rather than later. I know that if I don't do anything and just eat more or less sensibly, go out and about with a pram most of it will eventually drop off, especially as I'm bfing too, but with summer fast approaching I'd rather actively do something about it.

I've recovered well and I'm feeling fine (apart from lack of sleep, but that's to be expected), although can't exercise much yet as still have remains of SPD lingering on.

I'm starting off with 1000 cals on FDs and will gradually work my way down to 500 over time. I'm only doing one FD this week (today) but will aim to do 2 later.

Good luck everyone today, whether you're fasting or not!

Thanks for wise words persis bugsy MrD. Am keeping busy, drinking water and having a better NFD than yesterday so far, OK breakfast and a veg/bean soup simmering for later on. Feeling more on top of things at moment, appreciate the encouragement from you

That is really useful, annie, thanks! I tend to weigh meat (or just divide a 400g mince dish into 4 portions) but not really the veg (and the version of MPF I use allows entering "0.5 large aubergine", for example).

I had a mini-epiphany as to why I'm overeating on NFDs, and it's not just the (LC) treats; I was eating full protein portions for every meal, subconsciously thinking that I must make up for FDs. Eggs and bacon for brekkie, 2 chicken thighs for lunch and a steak for dinner... it all adds up! Now I realised I'm fine with eating only a small protein portion for lunch (eg. salad with Greek yogurt and mixed seeds). Also, I should swap my evening slab of meat for fish more often (as it's generally lighter in calories).

Here's my NFD menu from yesterday, which added to just under 1750 KCals (my sedentary TDEE at goal weight):
B: asparagus & mushroom omelette (2 eggs), shavings of parmesan
L: L/O spicy cauli "rice" with Greek yog mixed in, sour pickles; espresso with 1 square 85% choc and heaped teaspoon almond butter
D: beef burger (HM, just with herbs, spices and grated onion), cabbage sauteed with bacon.

I was satisfied, I had my treats, and it was at TDEE! :D

Second FD today, instead of Friday (which I'll try to make 16:8, and Mon too). Sat & Sun will be at sister's, she's very supportive of my diet but also envious as she can't seem to turn her own life around (she's also T2D but on lots of meds, and over 40 BMI). I don't know how to help her without it looking as if I'm bragging with my success, and she always has excuses why she can't do what I'm doing.

Good luck all fasters, and sorry for the novel! BTW, great NSVs, I'm awed by the sheer number of press-ups B&W, BCF!

sorry to hear you are so stressed clear but like others have said, you know you can do this and have done so so well to now, keep all your hard work going and you will feel better for being in control of one thing!

thanks for the advice BCF - to answer some of your questions...
Started 5:2 on 15th feb so 5 and a half weeks ago.
I do eat slowly i think and try to sit down in peace (!) as much peace as a 5 year old will allow anyway ;)
I am getting better at drinking water and probably making 2L now
I don't have any alcohol during the week so no, none before FD although i have been having a few sweet treats (i've stopped eating fruit as i find it gives me wind / gurgly belly!)

Wow, 3.5 years maintenance is fantastic, i can't imagine ever getting there but i hope that i can :)

So half a pound down after FD mon - not great but in the right direction. Probably undone by NFD yesterday - was forced (😉) to go to swanky new restaurant opening. Despite being good in the day the evening was chaos.

So far being good today - provided i avoid my 4 - 6.30pm demon snacking time i should close the day at about 1600 cals. I do not know what it is between 4 and 6 i am simply ravenous and would gladly eat my children if necessary. I should really bring dinner forward but DH hates eating with the monsters, he consider food to be the civilised part of our chaotic lives and with everything fraught at the minute i cant deny him that.

Hello all

FD here today and going ok so far, going to stick to water and tea for as long as possible and then have a reasonable dinner.

Lots of virtual support from me for everyone struggling, I found yesterday really hard and was so hungry but coming on here and reading the threads and knowing that you are all out there doing the same really helped and I managed to come in bang on TDEE (with an early night!) It's so hard when life and family stresses get in the way and I know I find weekends hard enough let alone a long weekend looming!

bcf I have my blood pressure checked regularly and as for the waist ratio...well I'm working on that one . Interesting re the cholesterol. Nothing runs in my family so hopefully it's not too much of an issue for me...

Between meetings here, but had to add my support to clear
< hugs / boot in arse >
You've already improved your health and shape significantly. Don't let stress throw you off track.
. I find walking helps me work off nervous energy.
. If you must chew, then wash carrots and crunch them raw.
. Keep drinking water
. If you have to stay indoors, then clearing out cupboards (not food ones !) keeps you busy
. If anyone is being unpleasant, practice your inner snarl, ignore and move on

Can you pamper yourself a bit ?
. new nail varnish (putting it on keeps hands away from food)
. hairdresser
. spa mask, bubble bath

Loving the virtual support!!! Hugs to all if life is getting in the way.
How's the Wednesday crew doing on the FD, not long left now.
I have learned even though I like breakfast, unless is carb loaded it makes me hungry. I probably knew before but today confirmed it. Nfd but been fighting the munchies all day. Still under tdee.
Nsv today, I have 2 old new dresses in my wardrobe, tried on and not looking scary .
Stay strong Wednesday fasters.xx

Congrats on your clothes NSV, Annie
Make sure you wear them often, before you have the Binning Big Clothes NSV

Thanks everyone, I'm getting by OK, did graze a bit this afternoon but then stopped, kept drinking loads of water and been for a good walk. Rallying myself to keep on track, like someone posted, at least it's one thing I can keep control of if I set my mind to it. It really helps knowing you're all out there somewhere on similar paths.

Well done to everyone posting positive SVs and NSVs

FD tomorrow, bring it on! < feet planted firmly on wagon>

Man am I looking forward to being able to eat tomorrow...I am soo hungry today. Managed to hold off until dinner time and I had a prawn salad so well under the 500 but don't want to eat anything else as it will likely give me the taste and set me off!! I think I didn't eat very much yday so the hunger has gotten to me today.

Looking forward to my granary toast and pb in the morning!!!

Hope all the other fasters are holding strong!!

Thanks OP I'll try and log on my fitness pal. The problem is a lot of the food I have is home cooked eh curries / deli bar at work etc so it's difficult to input every single ingredient or get an accurate calories figure. I have tried it in the past.

NFD today - was a bit of a disaster at work (started at 8 and finished after 7) but I had:

Breakfast- 1 Weetobix (no sugar yay!)
Lunch - fresh potato wedges from morissins
Dinner - 2 left over slices of veggie pizza (which are apparently 180 calories each)

I think I'm under my TDEE of 1558.

Stood on the scales and they haven't budged in the slightest (only day 3 yet though). FD tomorrow and looking forward to having my shakes. Got a half day at work so slightly worried it's going to be a tough day.

How quickly did everyone see weight loss? I'm 10 stone with a BMI of 25.4

You sound very positive for tomorrow's FD, clear Good luck !
You've done very well to stay on track despite stress.
Post whenever you need support - lots of lovely folk here to help

Well done on staying strong and avoiding temptation, Bugsy
You'll enjoy your breakfast tomorrow even more, knowing how well you did today.
FDs are easier if the NFD before you have nourishing food within TDEE, to support your body: include adequate protein, plenty of veg, some complex carbs

Cheeky With your TDEE, the 2 FDs would give you a weekly calorie deficit of about 2000, which is theoretically just over 0.6 lb per week.
However, most folk lose more quickly in the first 2 weeks.

Important: that low TDEE means you need to be careful not to average more than TDEE on the NFDs. Otherwise, you eat back the FD deficit.
I recommend mfp to assist in portion control.

Evening all. FD done coming in slightly over at 518 as I fancied a a milky drink straight after dinner.

I've just been re reading the fast diet book and I'm now wondering if I'm not strict enough on my fast days. I stick to 500 calories but sometimes will have a cup of tea with a bit of milk to get me through the day if I'm hungry. The milk is counted as part of my 500 but the book seems to say that this isn't great as it will affect my fasting state. BCF or anyone else - do you think I'm better off trying to give up tea with milk on my FDs? Will this affect my weight loss in the long run or am I ok doing this for now if it gets me through the FD? Not sure if I'm overanalysing this too much...

Hope other fasters got on ok today. I am looking forward to the healthy meals I have planned for tomorrow already :)

iirc, cheeky you said you didn't lose with daily 1200 cals on mfp.
Your low TDEE explains why:

Our bodies have evolved to retain fat, so will often compensate for a comparatively small daily calorie deficit like you had e.g. by lowering BMR or unconsciously reducing physical activity.
Unfortunately, in contrast, a small calorie surplus is usually stored as fat.
Bugger !

Research shows that most women need a daily deficit of at least 450 cals to lose weight via standard daily calorie restriction. (Some "hard losers" were shown to need up to 800 cals daily deficit, according to Dr Michelle Harvie in her 5:2 book)

The advantage of 5:2 / IF is that the contrast of FD / NFD both forces the body to burn fat for fuel and also avoids lowering BMR.
So women with low TDEE, who couldn't lose by conventional methods, have had success on these threads with 5:2

Pooch So long as you count your milk calories within the 500, that's no worse than any other calories.
If you mean you are concerned about having milk between meals:
ok, It is true that a zero-calorie period of several hours can boost fat-burning slightly. However, that really is fine tuning.
Most important is that your FDs are sustainable longterm.
Don't worry about it, enjoy your cuppa with milk
btw, unsweetened almond milk is super-low in calories, only 2 cals for 50 ml, which would keep you in a fasted state.

Out of curiosity did you have much to lose when you started or was it more for the health benefits?

MrD, it was totally for the health benefits. When I began this WOE back in February 2012, I had no thoughts about losing weight - I was given 10.10 as a target by WW many years ago, and I more or less stayed around there. I was very cautious about IF and thought I'd do it very gradually. In fact I just cut my calories in half on two days a week. So I'd have half my usual breakfast, half my usual lunch and half my usual dinner on a Monday, and the other halves on Wednesday. I imagined I'd lose the 3 or so lbs I'd put on over Christmas, but in fact I lost those very quickly and just carried on losing. It was only after the Horizon programme that I went down to 600 calories, and a couple of months later I'd lost 24lbs in total. And there I've stayed.

That's more or less an extract from my blog - if you're interested, there's a whole lot more here. Just skip the boring bits.

[Disclaimer: There are very many links on there. I've tried to check them all out, but I may have missed one or two. If you read anything there which conflicts with BCF's advice - believe BCF!]

Ah OP, this is what I was getting at the other day. I should really try eat around 1500 calories on NFD's in that case to give the body a bit of a 'shock' on FD and get fat burning. After I've got used to this I'm also going to try and add in exercise.

Hi. Fell off the wagon yesterday, was starving for protein so ate prob an extra meal. Lentil wedge and bolognaise sauce. I think it's because I hadn't had enough protein on my FD. But please, I need my butt kicking!!!

cheekychick, have you checked your pizza caks on the dominos nutrition site? A personal veg supreme pizza is 1900 calories alone, a slice of veg pizza, classic crust small is approx 500. I love pizza, but it's so bad never had a dominos for the calories stated.
www.dominos.com › nutrition

That domino link isn't working, check Google.