5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Evening all

FD kitchen closed on 530 today, would have been just under but I allowed myself a single rich tea biscuit for pud - in order to avoid the lovely soft big choc chip cookies I'd bought for the kids!

I've successfully survived and now I'm done

DC have requested a lounge sleepover tonight for first night of the hols - so the sofabed is out, duvets etc all setup and I'll be reading on my kindle in an hour or so once I convince them to go to sleep - they're loving it

Exercise slows brain ageing.

Study, reported in the Mirror this morning on the effects of exercise on the brain.

Took all my willpower today and I found it so so hard... In the end I gave in to a hot cross bun looks like I'm around 760 cals, not a great FD but I'm telling myself this is a small victory as ordinarily I might have thought fuck it and gone big style into the wine, crisps and cake... so I'm actually patting myself on my back a little!

Hope everyone else has managed okay...

Haven't kept up with all the action on here last few days while trying to hone my skills at dealing with stresses without it affecting my eating habits

Hope all fasters today are doing OK. Have finished my FD food here today but have a very rumbling stomach which I suspect is cos didn't eat yesterday evening as had eaten enough in day because of stress related grazing.

do hope you've got through FD OK

As you wisely say BCF it's learning to eat OK on NFDs that's key.

I too have that 'defiant child bring who wants to rebel if being 'rationed' or told 'no' to some food. These things go deep I think BUT we can change them!

Congratulations to many... can't remember them all sorry

Jing Yay you are shrinking! Keep at it!
Carrot Yay for SV
annie Yay to new dresses!

Yes persis I find protein on FD is key - basically I eat very simple protein (egg/prawn/salmon) and greens on FDs. And the meal I eat the night before FD makes a big difference to how FD goes - needs to be protein, veg and small serving complex carbs (and a little 'good' fat)

Kitchen closing at 880 tonight, mini FD done. Now bed, was up at 3.30 this morn and I'm knackered!

Big choc frenzy - that totally mAkes sense. I think I have lowered my bmr, i could quite happily go without food/eat minimal before and I never lost weight. I felt my body clung to the fat even more. I think I'll just have to give this 5:2 a good try and see what works for me.

FD number 2 today and it went fine. Just had my two ultrameal shakes and a banana. 490 calories.

I think tomorrow I'll try eat a bit more than I did than my last NFD. Keep under the 1588 though. Hopefully

Thank for all your advice you have such a wealth of knowledge, what's your background?

Sorry I meant how often are people taking body measurements and standing on the scales?

Hi all! So much to catch up on. BT has managed to cut off my old Internet supply and have decided that they can't fit the new one they are supplying for at least 5 working days, possibly much more.... Leaving me only able to get on the Internet in the tiny spot of my house with 3G signal so likely to be on less than usual!
Anyway, weigh in day yesterday and I'd put on 1lb over the week after all that stress, so I'm going to step away from the scales.

I also need to work on my NFDs like Persis said a while back, it's like I almost panic about what to eat. I'm wondering if when back from Easter break I should try BSD proper rather than 5:2 to teach myself to eat less generally.

What I really struggle with is that once I start eating for the day I struggle to control my hunger for the rest of it. I was doing much better at this , but these difficult stress filled last two weeks I've had less chance to plan my meals.

I'm also away for the weekend with little control over menus, so will do as well as I can... And will do my best not to eat ester eggs!!

Happy Easter all and good luck to any Easter fasters...

cheeky I'm weighing myself on the morning after FD 2 every week but just measuring waist, neck and hips every 4 weeks. Didn't think they would change much week to week.

Great NSV for me this morning - DS slept the whole night in his own bed for the first time since November. Amazing. Enjoying a cup of tea and Countdown on TV.

Friday fasters, we're all behind you get it done!

Happy Easter, everyone

Cheeky Measuring:

• Most people measure waist & hips when they start and then every 4 weeks. . Aim for waist / height less than 0.5, ideally less than 0.45

Weighing

• Usually every 1-2 weeks, on the morning after the 2nd FD of the week. . It is important to weigh under exactly the same conditions: naked, 1st thing in the morning after loo but before eating or drinking anything. . Switch on digital scales and count to 3 (to let them settle) before stepping on . Don't jump on the scales or move about or lean in any direction. Step on and stay still. . Keep the scales in the same position on a hard surface, not carpet and don't move them . It's ok to weigh daily if you like, but the reading to believe & record is this post-FD2

moo The Daily 800 BSD is just for very rapid weight loss in 8 weeks;
it won't teach how to eat on NFDs and you can't live on 800 cals permanently.

How to nail your NFD problem:

• Do 5:2 or 4:3 BSD with daily mfp
• Plan each NFD in advance and use mfp just like FDs, e. plan meals as carefully as for an FD.

• It takes about a month to learn new habits, so it would probably be shorter than the 8 weeks of BSD

Anyone else with an NFD problem can of course use above tactics for ordinary 5:2
As always: Avoid snacking / grazing / "just tasting" to keep control of your intake.

Hi all!

Great news jing on whole night's sleep , hope it continues!

do must have Xposted with you last night - yes it's definitely a victory not to succumb and give up totally, and just have a hot X bun -well done. It's so easy to slip into 'oh fuck it....'

It's definitely not an instant thing, changing these old habits that go us overweight in the first place. Moo I'm working hard at 'retraining' myself on the what/when and how often I eat on NFDs, sometimes doing well, sometimes not so well. We're going to have ups and downs, important thing is we don't give up completely at any blip.

I've STS after mega-stressful week so it could have been a lot worse -but bloody annoying too- going to steer clear of scales and try to NOT GRAZE. Just keep eating a bit too much ggrrrr!

Have a good day everyone

Third FD here for me this week. Water and a couple of cups a tea until dinner tonight of fish cakes and broccoli. Ended up having a mini FD yday by accident & had my main meal at 1pm....will give me a good period of time without food when I finally eat later.

Hope all other fasters stay strong today

Good plan, Bugsy and I'm impressed at Easter Friday FD. You are hardcore

Yes, retraining usually takes time, clear That's absolutely ok.
That weight took years to put on. Hence learning new habits, appropriate to your goal body, can take several weeks.

Mfp really can help wrt eating too much. Even writing down what you eat, as a list, can be a reality check of why the weight loss is slower than you want

• calorie deficit is usually the dominant factor in weight loss / sts

Return to useful habits from our pre-1980 eating culture:

• Smaller plates. Plates I have from the 1960s are smaller, for main meal & especially for pud
• No snacking between meals. Didn't exist until about 1980
• More real food, i.e. not processed, padded with sugar & cheap fat, stripped of fibre, partly digested before we even eat it.
• Eat only proper meals at the table, a lost habit in our time-poor lives. Mindful eating, not in front of the TV or tablet.
• Chewing food thoroughly. Eating is to be savoured; it's not a competitive race.

Thanks. What does sts stand for ? I'm not entirely sure what is meant by waist/height less than 0.45?

sts = Stay The Same

waist is a good indicator of the level of visceral fat (i.e. around organs) which is the dangerous type when too high. Obviously important too for clothes size / body shaoe.
Subcutaneous fat (under the skin) may be unsightly, but it doesn't matter nearly as much wrt health.

Public health advice is that we should all aim for a waist which is less than half our height, i.e. waist / height less than 0.5.
That is the most basic aim. Really good is to aim for not more than 0.45, if possible.

Pic shows how to measure waist & hips. Monitoring these gives additional info to scales

Ah that's interesting!

Well done, everyone - KOKO!

Hope you all have a happy Easter break with your children. No kids? Have a great time doing your own thing. Our tribe don't descend until next week, so it's a quiet weekend for us - followed by some organised chaos, no doubt!

Fell off the 2:5 'avoiding evening snacking and sugar' wagon yesterday. All day I thought it was Friday, so I had a couple of pieces of cake after dinner, and some chocolate before I realised! Then I had a late night snack.

So this week has turned into a 3:4. I'd like to say I'll be back on it after dinner on Sunday, but, knowing my DS, there'll probably be at least one vegan Easter egg which will need disposing of!

About pizzas - which we have every Saturday (I make a mean vegan pizza!), there's a cal-counted pizza recipe (910cals) on the 5:2 recipe thread. Scroll down to 23-Jan-13.

And you could substitute some of the cheese for peppers/tomatoes, etc, making it even more low-cal.

Easter is just a short break, B&W You know you will easily drop the extra couple of lb you might gain.
Remember, you need fuel, for maximum performance in the pressup competition with your DS - we are eagerly awaiting reports on that Match of The Day
Whoever wins, a great bonding event.

Afternoon all

FD here today - I am struggling a bit today but have loads of meals out this weekend so I need to get through today! I am planning an early dinner and an early night I think :)

Hope everyone is having a great Friday and making the most of the lovely weather :)

Stay strong on your Easter FD, Pooch and don't get hit by flying Easter eggs

Evening all,

Been busy with the DC today, but pleased to say I didn't forget to weigh in this morning and its down by just about 1.5lb - now 14st 3lb - nearly through the NEXT stone barrier

Been out walking in the new forest with the DC which was lovely - they are now off with EXH until sunday night, so I'm chilling tonight ready for my 14 miler training walk in the morning (nervous about this one, think its because its over half the marathon distance).... and then after a nap am out dancing the night away if I can still walk

Clear - I'd call STS a bit of an NSV personally after the week you've had. You've learnt to control what you take in when under emotional stress and ... most importantly DIDN'T gain! - go you!

b&w - I think you're fine to have an occasional day off at your stage of maintenance! Plus , we all know you like sweet things, and it IS easter after all! Looking forward to hearing that you've whooped your DS' ass on the pressup challenge

Well done bugsy - you weighing in tomorrow?