5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks all. I have been doing 5:2 for well over three years now, so worry that this might be more than a temporary blip. :(

I know my GP surgery will try and stick me on statins if they test me and my total cholesterol is around 7. My plan is not to fast for a month perhaps and monitor my diet and then retest. I will stay away from the GP's until the levels are down, I think!

Oh and I have a full lipid profile tester arriving soon, so I should know more about the HDL/LDL levels and ratios.

Jing May I ask why you did your FD without caffeine ?
Espresso is an essential part of my FD, especially just before exercise, to help mobilise body fat for fuel.

persis, that's average grown up portions - raw weight not cooked. 75g of rice makes approx 150 - 200g when boiled. My giant teen eats a bigger portion but I try to eat less. Boil in the bag rice is 62 gram dry.
If you DC eat it and run it off its OK, LO need more to grow.

For NFDs
. Eat normal meals, lots of non-starchy veg.
. No snacks or nibbling between.
. Keep to nhs safe alcohol limits
. Keep drinking water

Annie's guidelines are sensible.
A fist-sized starchy carb portion is realistic to maintain weight, which is what you want to do on NFDs, maintaining the weekly deficit from the 2 FDs.
btw, that portion size is best as the TOTAL for starches, so if you have say potatoes and parsnips, the 2 starches together should be fist-sized.

Carbs provide energy. Excess carbs will be converted to fat and stored.
So will excess anything, but carbs are the easiest.

Someone asked this: If you have very active, skinny teens, they probably need bigger portions of starches. The amounts above are for grown adults.

Lifestyle Factors that Can Raise Cholesterol

Poor diet:
The body produces most cholesterol itself, but poor diet can raise levels a lot.
. Trans fats, found in junk food, deep fried food, in some baked goods - donuts, crackers, biscuits, pies etc
. High added sugar in sugary treats

Alcohol / Liver Damage
. Alcohol above safe limits and / or excess sugary crap may cause liver damage.
. Damage from whatever cause reduces the liver's ability to metabolise cholesterol, whether produced by the body or from poor diet

TOFI (Thin Outside Fat Inside)
. Too much visceral fat (i.e. around organs) even at "normal" BMI can increase LDL
. Some people tend to store more visceral fat, so need a lower BMI. The WHO healthy BMI limit for Asians is now 22.9, not 24.9. but some Caucasians also need to stay below 22.9. The ideal BMI for such folk may be 19.

Waist circumference / insulin resistance
. Waist / height should be below 0.5, preferably below 0.45.
. If you tend to put on weight around the waist, this is a sign of insulin resistance. High blood sugar raises LDL cholesterol and lowers HDL, worsening your profile.

Lack of exercise
. Exercise improves insulin metabolism, helps boost your body's HDL, while increasing the size of the particles that make up your LDL, thus making it less harmful.

Smoking
. Damages the walls of your blood vessels, likely to increase fatty deposits.
. May also lower your level of HDL.

Thanks guys. I've never been v good at eating meals - I'm one of natures grazers. So I don't really know what a normal meal is unless I think back to when I was living at home - was prob the last time I sat down to 3 meals a day!! I'm trying though as its good for the kids, and I'm finding the support on here v helpful for the NFDs as well as the FDs!!!

No snacking is brutally hard for me

That's what so weird. I am very fit, take at least an hour's exercise a day. I have a slim waist, 28 inches.

Have never smoked and drink only at weekends, never more than the approved levels and usually much less.

The only other thing I can think of is a skiing trip that involved lots of alpine cheese and chocolate, but that was for about six days only,

Otherwise I fear it may be familial.

Big choc frenzy - thanks for that info. I didn't think I would lose weight if I ate under 1500 calories on NFD. In the past I've tried to track to 1200 and not lost a pound. I think it depends on your body.

I see you asking jing why they had no caffeine on FD, I've obviously got a lot to learn! Should I carry on with my can of coke habit

My first NFD - I've had
2 weetobix with milk, one sugar sachet
A low fat savoury cheese wrap
Dominoes pizza - not yet arrived.
Am I failing already??

Lots of interesting things on here re: cholesterol, I'm having my checked again in may so will be good to see whether it has come down...

Kitchen closed at 531cals 😁 mini FD planned for tomorrow too. Anyone else get heartburn on FD days? I've noticed the last 3 FD's I've had burning from afternoon onwards not good as I would only usually get heartburn after over indulgence.

Hope all other tues fasters have had a successful day and good luck to all you weds fasters 😁

FD here 630 cal (BFing). Not bad. The only thing is I had to adjust my meal planning as I ate half a pancake at lunch time. Stupid thing to do!

That's some of the trouble with portions bcf there's no education about it these days. I'm one of the sad cases that weighs & counts food when cooking, then we get minimal waste. My giant teen will eat the large portions.
My issue has been excess Friday & Saturday.

cheeky are you sharing the pizza?? Remember not to eat back you FD deficit.

Wow I'm finding the posts on here tonight enlightening. DH had his annual medical today and that plus this thread has made me think perhaps I should look into getting a check at some point.

NFD here today and I've stuck to TDEE but been very very hungry. Not enough water I think and had a carby lunch which I don't normally do and which made me feel hungrier.

FD tomorrow - aiming for 4:3 this week if I can as got a very busy weekend and would like to bank some cals.

Well done to all Tuesday fasters!

cheeky On 5:2, no problem with caffeine. Just better black on FDs, or with almond milk.
Diet fizz is neither banned nor recommended. If you find they cause sweet cravings, stop them. Otherwise, no need to change habits.

Abraid re Cholesterol levels - doesn't sound like a lifestyle issue for you. Familial is possible.
Also, did you take the levels the day after an FD ? You may go into ketosis on an FD, which might affect results.

Thousands of people, mostly in the USA, have been doing some form of ADF (with 25 - 50% TDEE on FDs) for several years - long before Varady invented her EOD and Mosely the 5:2. They have been studied wrt conditions like asthma. Hence, I would have expected any inherent issue with cholesterol to be noticed. However, it is always possible that a small minority may react differently to fasting.

cheeky You need to stay within your TDEE on NFDs; otherwise you are eating back the FD deficit, which would slow or even stop weight loss.

I recommend you mfp, at least for a week, because you seem unsure how many calories you are consuming - note: some "one-person" pizzas have 1500 - 2,000 cals
While learning about portions, it helps to roughly plan each NFD in advance
e.g. if your TDEE = 1600, you could have 4 meals of about 400 cals each, or 2 meals of 400 plus one meal of 800. Mfp will help you find for your chosen meal what size portion has suitable cals.
So, mfp is a useful training tool, which you can stop once you no longer need it.

need Re heartburn: what is your typical FD meal plan & timing ?
Do you add spices, vinegar etc that you don't normally have on other days ?

pooch I'll be 60 this summer and I've never had my cholesterol checked.
For women of any age and for men aged 50+ there doesn't seem clear evidence that cholesterol affects life expectancy - unless you are the 1 in 500 with high familial hypercholesterolemia, in which case statins are probably essential.
Important checks: blood pressure, that waist / height stays under 0.5, bmi

Prior to this WOL, my usual portion size for rice, etc, was always what it said on the packet - 70 or 75g.

Now, using a smaller plate, I find 50g is plenty - with generally 3 serving spoons of curry or whatever.

I have an SV of my own to report: I was weighed at the docs yesterday, and I'm happy to say that, according to her records, I'm exactly the same weight as I was 3 years ago.

I've now been maintaining for almost 3 and a half years with very little effort, fasting for 24 hours one day a week. All the while enjoying good food and denying myself nothing.

Through the encouragement and advice freely given on these threads, I've recently made several tweaks as to how I manage this WOL.

After Christmas I gave up alcohol during the week - just having 3 to 4 units on Saturday and Sunday.

Then, just last week, I decided to go 2:5 on both my evening snacking and my sugar intake.

I've been kidding myself that I'm doing 16:8, when, in truth, I've been having a supper late in the evening 3 to 4 nights a week. OK, I don't have breakfast on 6 days a week, but that's not 16:8. But, all last week and this, I've successfully been in the zone and I've not been having those late night snacks - except on Friday and Saturday nights

Similarly, I've cut down my sugar intake drastically. I have shelves full of vegan sweets - at least 4 varieties including 2 sorts of choc liqueurs, plus 2 pkts of biscuits and 2 cakes, all close to hand as I type. All I'm allowing myself through the week is one small slice of Mrs Crimbles stem ginger cake - 20g, or 63 cals - after my lunch and dinner. (On the weekend I spread this with my homemade choc spread - bliss!)

Occasionally, I'll have a single square of dark chocolate after a meal - but only if I have a couple of walnuts with it.

Just noticed your mention of blood pressure, BC - yesterday mine was 110 over 70, pronounced as 'ideal'. [smug]

BigChoc sadly I have white coat syndrome. I do take my BP at home to show them that it's normally fine, though.

Thanks for your input! :)

Hi bcf a typical FD day for me is...
No breakfast just coffee and water
Lunch is normally at 12 and usually a turkey salad from subway wirh dressing (easiest thing at work)
Dinner usually around 6.30pm and either chicken with veg stir fried (so yes a bit of spice) or mushroom stroganoff and bare naked noodles / rice and then maybe a cup of tea later in evening.

😊

Congrats on your maintenance & healthy lifestyle NSVs, B&W
Your nearly 3 ½ years maintenance is anl inspiration to those still in the weight loss phase - folks: this can be you in a few years time !

need That looks a good FD plan.
How long have you been doing 5:2 ? For some people, their stomach may take a month or so to get used to having days of v little food. That is separate to ability to manage hunger.
You may just need a bit longer.

Some thoughts:
. Do you gulp your food down ? Make sure you chew properly and drink water during and after the meal.
. Do you have proper sitdown meals, in peace, or do you have to multitask, eat on the go, keep getting up to wrangle DCs ?
. Do you drink enough water during the day ? Aim for 2litres
. The NFD evening before an FD, do you have a lot of alcohol / sweet treats ? Even a lot of fruit with supper could be too acidic the next day for an empty tum.
On that NFD, your last meal should be healthy protein, veg, complex carbs (if you aren't low carbing). Try without alcohol or pud.

Hi all not kept up with all the action on here last couple of days, will catch up on it all and celebrate everyone's successes soon..................

........... but just need a cyber kick up the back side/words of encouragement from anyone who's around as am in midst of stressful family stuff this week and know I could so easily slip up on the mindful eating front. Slippage started yesterday, not loads of junk, but definitely overeating due to stress.

Some of the stresses here are ongoing and I am so determined to keep turning my life and health around in spite of this. Am reminding myself how far I have come since 4th January, 28lb down already, so much fitter already, BMI gone from 40ish to 35ish, so much healthier already, and really really need not to fall off the wagon into old habits of overeating when stressed.

Just posting this is helpful - off to glug more water now

Have a good day everyone