5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Yes clear it's almost too good to be true! I've spent the best part of 25 years trying to find a way of eating I can live with and I'd tried everything until 5:2, I almost don't want to think I might have found the way to go 😶 I know the real test will come when my loss slows but I've a good 3.5 stones to lose yet so hoping that wont happen for a while!

Morning all.

Well done on all the FDs and SV!

A bit perplexed today. I've had a very stressful week with work, schools emotional stuff but have been managing to stay low carb (although have probably eaten a bit over TDEE once or twice.
I'm a daily(ish) weigher as I personally find that helps HOWEVER, this week I weighed in at 169 on wed, 171 on thurs, 172 yesterday and 173 today. This is a quick increase and I feel bloated (part of the reason I weighed this morning.
Not TOTM, poss not enough water and a couple of glasses of wine.

I know that weight fluctuates, and I'm going to step away from the scales now until after FD2 this week... But can stress in its own right cause this, or could it be that with the stress I've underestimated what I'm actually eating as I've not had a chance to MFP.

need Eat when you're hungry; don't eat when you aren't.
Some days, the combination of factors is just right, so your body wants to burn its fat for fuel; other days it won't.
Take advantage of the fat-burning mode while it lasts.

Make sure you keep drinking plenty of water, thougn. You always need that.

moo Weight fluctuates day to day for everyone, especially women. This is caused by hormonal swings, water retention / release, digestive process.

This fluctuation is increased on a low carb diet if you add back wine carbs:
alcohol on any WOE stops fat-burning for hours and tends to store fat around the waist. However on lc, it probably brings you out of ketosis.

Prolonged stress over weeks can cause weight gain due to continually raised cortisol levels.
However, the main problem with stress is that it increases appetite and reduces mindfulness, so people often eat - especially nibbles and snacks - far more than they realise.

So, few lb over a week is perfectly possible in your circumstances.

Suggestions:

• weigh ONCE per week - or even fortnightly - the morning after FD2. . daily weighing is only beneficial so long as it doesn't cause stress or demotivation.
• Keep water with you and deliberately glug. You must have 2l + water per day.
• mfp - you are probaly eating & drinking too much. . You won't get this under control until you measure & monitor. At least do so for 1 week. . At the very minimum, if you cba with mfp, write down what you eat and when. You may be shocked at the end of the week.
• Cut out all snacks / nibbling / alcohol between meals
• Keep the alcohol within nhs limits and NEVER on FDs
• To reduce stress: . Plan your day so you get 8 full hrs sleep . Have a brisk daily walk, but if you feel tired, drop any other exercise for a while. . Try yoga or meditation classes, if available. Or a few mins daily deep breathing exercises

Thanks bcf had water and a couple of slices of chicken so far... resisted sweets and cake at kids party! Going to pub for early tea so will see if u can hang on to that, it feels great though! the sv this morning has helped

Thanks Big choc.
It seems like that's all the case. I had been MFPing religiously but this week it just hasn't happened. I have also been picking and not eating proper meals until the eve. May also have been some carb creep.

We've friends over this eve so I'm going to be mindful but not too stressy. Then I'm back on it tomorrow. The positive is that I've managed over 10000 steps every day.

Sadly my stress reduction would be easier with better sleep but I can probably count the number of unbroken nights sleep I've had in the last 8 years...

Doineed well done on the SV!

Thanks moo hope you have a nice evening with your friends and a good night's sleep. Sleep deprivation is torture, my 5 yr old still wakes before 6am everyday and it doesn't make for a good start to the day and you end up making bad food decisions due to tiredness... hope whatever is causing you stress lifts soon

I've just got in from the pub, was a wetherspoons so had calories 😁 went for cod and mexican rice at 419 cals and a side salad at 95 cals so with that and 2 glasses of prosecco it's been v v manageable. I looked at the cals of what I would normally order (chicken burrito ) and it was around 1100 cals!!!!

Got cals leftover for some stilton and red wine, #feelinghappy

Thanks, BCF, for your advice and support. I suppose I needed to let the negativity out, and with it gone, this morning the scale registered 0.5 kg less which has finaly brought me out of the obese and into the overweight range (BMI

Well done vib that's fantastic 😀

Congrats on your SV, Vibrantella and on dropping down another whole BMI class.
It's been a long journey from BMI 40 to 30, but think how far you have come and the difference it has made.

Probably one reason you are finding it tough is that your smaller body needs less fuel than at BMI 40.
So to lose at a decent speed, you need to recalculate your TDEE after every 10-15 lb loss and readjust your daily intake.
Now is the time to build exercise into your life permanently, if you don't already. Start with a brisk daily walk and fit 10k steps throughout the day, or do more vigorous training if you prefer.

From now until you reach healthy BMI is your training time, where you learn the habits that will enable you to maintain at goal longterm:
Drinking lots of water, no snacking, keeping treats & alcohol to sensible amounts, portion sizes suitable to your smaller bod.

Poor Moo Sleep deprivation is used by torturers because it is so weakening.
I'm sure you try going to bed earlier and naps, but obviously not always possible.
Lack of sleep increases appetite and increases cortisol, both of which can mess up weight loss.
You just have to dig in for the long haul.

The BSD / low carb doesn't work well if you have a lot of starches or alcohol each weekend.
I suggest the 2:5 method - one glass OR one small portion wholegrain carbs on 2 NFDs per week, letting your liver & pancreas rest the other 5 days.
When you resume mfp next week, this should help keep track of carbs as well as cals. For BSD, aim to stay within 50g carbs on FDs, below 100g on all other days.

You made good, mindful choices today, need
That's an example of how to identify calorie bombs via mfp or other means, then find satisfying alternatives you can enjoy for a longterm lifestyle change.

I got my sub 12 stone today and did a little dance round the hall. Working on the quality of my NFD food has kept me from snacking
Hope it's a sunny Sunday for my fellow 5:2 ers.

Wow, great SVs!!! I'm doing a little dance in the living room for you all!!!

Well....I am fasting today . I eat too much at the weekends and I ate too much yesterday at my cousins - nothing too unhealthy but too much of it! So I'm going to try today and see how that works out for me. I'm also feeling really, really tired and I know from bitter experience that this is when I start snacking for energy....hopefully a proper FD will sort it out!

Anyone else? Could do with a hand to hold....

Congrats on your SV, fusspot and welcome to the 11 stone somethings.
< joins in the Happy Dance >

Good luck on your FD, Persis
I've done this in the past after a heavy Saturday, just to give my tum a rest before the week starts.
Very true that snacking & unconscious nibbling is more likely when your are tired

Hi all! Not been on for ages so thought I'd pop in. I'm still maintaining since I reached my target in December. I haven't done any FDs for a good month to 6 weeks now but have stayed within 2lbs, fluctuating up and down. I now weigh once a week rather than every day. The whole 5:2 experience has really made me think about what I eat. What is helping me maintain is NEVER snacking and eating only good , nutritious food and only drinking alcohol on 2 nights a week. Obviously there are the odd occasions but I'm finding that as long as I'm back on it the next day I don't gain. I know I'm lucky because I love healthy foods anyway, I was just eating too much of them and drinking more.

Morning all, hope you're having great weekends so far! Just wondered if anyone could recommend some decent digital scales? We've never owned scales so I normally weigh at the gym but I'm having to do more outdoor/ at home exercise atm so am not getting chance to get in the gym as often

That's great to hear, lovemyway
You have a healthy sustainable maintenance WOL.
It's so important to have this, so you only need to work to lose this weight once, then just enjoy staying at Happy Weight forever.

Bugsy Many folk like the Tanita scales. btw, Amazon Warehouse Deals on them atm

bugsy, I found these recommendations on the Tips and Links thread - which I was astonished to see had become a Zombie thread. I've bumped it up hoping to breathe new life into it!

"Omron BF511 Body Composition Monitor which you can see on Amazon. I too heard that these type of scales can be inaccurate but DrMM himself answered a question (on twitter) about his scales used at the end of the Horizon prog (they look similar to mine). He said that they may be inaccurate in the first measurement but they will at least tell you how much fat you are losing (or gaining)."

And:
"I have some Salter Ultimate Accuracy scales which I got for around £40 from Argos. Unfortunately they do not have an eye level display thing but the digital display is a reasonable size. I literally love them. I would save them from the house in the event of a fire!"

Some lovely SVs and NSVs on the thread - and it's nice to hear from you love. Great stuff!

Fab, thank you

Fab, thank you

Morning! Checking in for my FD. My DH is joining me today so that should make it a little bit easier. I'm going to try and have most of my cals in the afternoon to make me a slightly nicer mummy this evening! Last week I may have turned a little hangry and I really didn't like it. Good luck everyone else on their fast days today!

Fasting too today with an ill DC at home with me so am hoping to keep busy and get some work done in between 'Florence Nightingaling'.

Lots of positive news from people over the weekend, haven't kept up with it all and hope I'm not forgetting any names but...

Yay to little 1lb down, every lb counts

Yay to vibrant for brilliant BMI progress

Yay to fusspot for getting