5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
=======

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
============

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[Bringonsummer]

Thanks bigchoc. I am definitely toughening up on myself with the NFD's. I am very keen to shift this stone asap. I would like another half too, but will be content (ecstatic with 1).

Day closes at 514. Bike riding tomorrow yippee

[insieme]

I had the first comment about looking thinner today since I started 5:2ing in January. A friend I don't see often said she thought I'd lost weight! Yay! I've got several stone to lose so it takes a while to make a visible difference, but apparently it's noticeable now!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Congrats on the SV, gin
Since you are BFing, 750 cals is a good target.

Note to everyone: on FDs, you are NOT supposed to eat back cals. Only BFers get extra cals.

Well done on your FD, MrD, Moo, Summer
Very impressive with the veg and water, MrD Raw veg gives you a long time of happy crunching.

[campocaro]

Hi I restarted 5:2 yesterday after 18 months away. FD on Mondays and Thursday or Weds. I lost 2 stone when I first tried this way of eating but have put most of it back on due to some BIG life events -but now in a better place and raring to go! I know I can do it!

Yesterday went well- I learnt last time not to eat until evening and yesterday had a cup of veg bouillon at lunch and enjoyed some delicious rhubarb tea mid afternoon. Salad and small tin of tuna in evening and early bed!

I have a tendency to over eat on NFDs so severely limiting my bread ,rice, potatoes ,puds, biscuits , alcohol and cake intake-there has been far too much comfort eating in the last few months!

Last night I booked a summer holiday and this will keep me going/motivated plus the thought of the scales at the doctor's -I was diagnosed with high blood pressure in January and if I lose some weight I may be able to keep off medication. I will do this!

[Abraid2]

Hi all

I was one of the original 5:2-ers, starting right after the original Horizon programme.

I didn't have a vast amount to lose and it came off well, with a few blips that were caused by hormones and water retention. I'm now about 9 st 7 at 5 ft 8. Which is great, except that my cholesterol has rocketed in the last three years. As I had only kept on going with one or two fast days a week for health rather than dieting reasons since reaching my target weight, I have now stopped 5:2. I've bought a full lipid panel home cholesterol tester and am waiting to see if the cholesterol settles down.

I'm wondering whether fasting releases fat into the bloodstream and hoping it is temporary.

[redstrawberries101]

Hi everyone. I'm new to this thread! Exciting times lay ahead. I would love to be able to shift some weight after I put almost 2 stone on following major surgery and lots and lots of medication. I tried eating just 1200 calories a day but that hasn't got me anywhere so I thought I would try this. I had my first FD yesterday and had two ultrameal shakes. Didn't drink as much water as I would've liked actually so I'll try and up that today. Did have periods of feeling hungry but I had one at 1pm and the other at 8.30pm. Maybe next time I should have the last meal/shake earlier?

I'm a little worried about NFD's. My TDEE was approx 1600 calories but I think my problem is that I don't usually eat enough or I go the other extreme and have an extra takeaway after dinner and hence eat too much. I'll try and track via my fitness pal. I assume that if you eat less than 1500 calories then you won't lose weight

Does anyone know if it's ok to 5:2 whilst TTC? I would stop as soon as I fell pregnant.

[redstrawberries101]

Abraid2, my cholesterol rocketed following surgery and I was told the liver pumps out cholesterol when repairing. That would fit with the fasting too as the body is thought to be repairing whilst fasting, right? Maybe not the same extent of repair as surgery but fasting could be a contributing factor.

[annielostit]

Morning all,
Well-done Monday fasters & good luck to any Tuesday crew.x
Good FD yesterday just over 500. Was hungry in bed though, kept waking up. Going to gym in a bit but need some brekkie first -fast mode training ain't gonna work today.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome, Campocaro

We've learned a lot in the 18 months you've been away, so check out the OP, especially the HOW TO START section.

Aim for TDEE on NFDs; if you want to speed things up, calculate sedentary TDEE.

Why do you think you won't lose if you go below 1500 on NFDs - are you referring to the "starvation" mode ? That is bad science, a myth.

e.g. Mosely's BSD (Blood Sugar Diet) is 8 weeks low carb on daily 800 cals and people lose a huge amount of weight. It is based on Newcastle Uni research, which was funded by Diabetes Uk and won their Banting Prize.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Sorry, meant to say: my comment about 1500 cals was for cheeky
Re your other questions:
Losing weight should help ttc and 5:2 can also help some hormonal issues, such as PCOS.
The 5:2 stork has visited several people on these threads
Noone should try to lose weight once they are confirmed pregnant, unless advised to do so by doctors. However, during the ttc time, overweight people are usually advised to lose weight and generally to get into better shape, do some regular exercise etc

[BigChocFrenzy]

If you want to be extra careful when ttc, I suggest abstaining from alcohol - the most vulnerable time for the foetus is 3-8 weeks, e.g. Embryonic Research

[doineedhelp]

Morning everyone, well to all with fab svs and nsvs 😀 FD here today, just tea and water so far, got my usual turkey subway salad for lunch and not sure re: tea.

Thinking of doing mini FD tomorrow as well as usual Thursday FD in anticipation of easter bank holiday, not bothered about easter eggs but got family meals out etc. How does everyone cope when things not in your control and you can't calorie count everything? Just try and make good choices?

Hope all Tuesday fasters have a good day 😀

[BigChocFrenzy]

Abraid Losing weight / burning fat on any WOE can raise cholesterol temporarily, but I haven't seen research on specifically cholesterol during 5:2 maintenance.
However, leading scientists investigating healthy aging, avoiding brain and insulin issues are advocating intermittent fasting as a longterm lifestyle, see research links in Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health section, at the bottom of the OP.

Several folk here have been maintaining on 5:2 for 2-3 years. I haven't heard if they monitored cholesterol readings - Yoohoo talkinpeace, Breadandwine any info here ?
I've never monitored my own cholesterol levels, because the scientific evidence for its effect on mortality is unclear for women unless they have Familial hypercholesterolaemia. The evidence for men is different.

Did you measure your levels the day after fasting ? Research suggests that during fasting, "bad" cholesterol is scavenged from fat cells, to use as a source of energy. That would raise levels.

Do you know the changes in the different components of cholesterol, rather than just the total ? Fasting may raise the beneficial HDL.

[BigChocFrenzy]

need Just stick to the usual tips:
. Drink lots of water
. No snacking between meals - have your Easter egg as pud
. Keep sugar and alcohol to sensible amounts

[OohMrDarcy]

Morning all

Feeling good after yesterdays FD and that bloat is gone already (plus a teensy bit extra) so am happy I confirmed it right!

Am sticking to just water until lunchtime today to make sure I get that magic 16 hr window without cals for super repair mode.

am not worried about easter weekend as the DC are with their dad and I have a 14 mile training walk planned! I am however off out to a club (not normally my scene!) so there may be wine consumed, but not too much as I know I won't feel like it after the walk (I'll also be lucky if I'm capable of dancing by then!!)

The rest of the week could be a bit of a write off as I'm off with the DC. We will get out and about lots, and I'll be gardening etc so exercise will definitely be increased, however probably only mini FDs that week - we'll see, would like to fit at least one full one in if I can.

welcome to new and old!

[doineedhelp]

Roger that bcf

[jingscrivvens]

Morning everyone, new and old!

Great to see new people on the board, means I'm not the only newbie. Had my first FD without caffeine yday and it was H A R D. Ended up at 650 cals, needed extra bovril and a whole chicken breast at tea, rather than the half I'd hoped for. Might end up doing a mini FD on Thurs too to try and help, got other FD today so glug, glug, glug the water.
Let's do it Tuesday fasters!

[PersisFord]

Hi everyone! FD today and have had a pint of water and am slurping a black coffee.

Well done to everyone! insieme what a great feeling!! Im sure you look amazing! gincamel great exercising, I feel your pain about the non-sleeping baby!! MrD and moo great fasting!

Had a bad day yesterday. I think I was confused from not fasting on Monday and all my meal plans etc were out. Ended up eating with the baby which involved porridge, hot cross buns and cheesey omelette . I've been trying to avoid carbs if I can as I find that i eat far to much and it sets up a big craving for more carbs, and a vicious cycle. That's pretty much what happened yesterday. Am a bit sad thinking that I will never be able to eat normal things in a normal way.

But.....I have 2 NSVs to report. Firstly, I am LOVING the black coffee. Secondly, I seem to have lost my chocolate craving!!! Am having an Options for my dessert most evenings but I want it for the milkiness rather than the chocolatiness I think!

I need to toughen up on NFD. I find the FD easy enough but I sort of panic on NFD. I feel like I don't know what to eat, or what normal people eat, or normal portions. I have heard good things about the hairy dieters cookbooks - are there things in there that the whole family could eat? I like us to all eat the same things when we are together but so far all that we manage together that is reasonably low calorie is soup and sandwiches (I don't eat the sandwiches!). Any thoughts?

Also, any Tuesday fasters to hold my hand? Am off to circuits in a minute, hopefully will suppress my appetite!!!

[PersisFord]

that post was so long I cross posted! Massive props to jing for Tuesday fast!!

[ShapeShifting]

Marking place, may start this soon.

[jingscrivvens]

Holding your hand right here Persis!
Big congrats to the losing of the choc craving, amazing! If I could only lose my craving for fatty salty food...
And whoop to circuit training on a fast, should boost that FD right there!
I know what you mean about eating on a NFD, I feel the same. I like us all to eat the same too, if for no other reason than it's only one meal for me to cook. I bulk meals out with carbs for DP and DS then just limit my intake and I never stare longingly at their plates oh no

[annielostit]

persis & jing, I know exactly what you mean about not knowing what to eat on nfd. I feel the need to be 'good' then eating or not eating certain things becomes an obsession and the reintroduction of dieting. too much bread bloats me so only have 2 slices max a day, I plan meals so it goes with vegetables & measure the carb portion.

Irt what a portion is, generally (chef training) per person
100-125g of meat, going in a pasta, chilli type dish.
150g of whole meat or fish,
85g is a fruit or vegetable portion,
150g -200g is potato & approx 75g of rice /pasta.
All raw weights.

Another guide is your hands, meat is palm sized , 2 cupped hands of vegetables & no more than a fist size of carbs. Not many have over sized hands in comparison to their body.

[annielostit]

Good grief, that was long.

[PersisFord]

annie is that for wveryone? My kids eat too much carbs if so....

[Breadandwine]

The last blood test I had, 18 months ago, my cholesterol levels were pronounced 'perfect'. I have another test in a couple of days, so we'll see how they are then.

I remembered some blood results posted here several years ago, which I copied onto my blog. Anyone remember Cyclistist?

TheCyclistist Sat 01-Dec-12 00:26:04
Evening all.

 Well as I said earlier got the blood test results back this afternoon and I'm sad enough to sit down and share them with the greater research project that is this Thread approaching the midnight hour.



A bit of background first. Up till two years ago I basically had a quite an issue with alcohol, namely a bottle of a half of Merlot in front of the Telly after work every day of the week. This had no real effect on my health until about 3 or 4 years ago when basically that and my increasing weight led to me starting to fall apart physically (no need to go into too many details). Anyway the docs start sending me for blood tests every 6 months or so to see how the 'markers' in my blood were doing.

 Initially although my cholesterol was always fairly good, never really above 5.2, most of the other markers weren't great. My liver enzyme test coming out at about 130 when the upper limit should be 40.

 I stopped drinking 2 years ago but put on a little more weight till a year ago I was 18 stone (but naturally big boned :) ). Although I hadn't drunk for a year the Liver enzyme test was still in the 60's this January. I lost a few stone between last November and early July when I had my last test and the Liver enyme test had dropped to 46, nearly the upper range of healthy.



So below are the results from July a couple of weeks before I started this WOE, initially 4:3 then more recently 5:2. As it said in the programme I have had 600 cals on Fasting days and eaten anything on none fasting days including chocolate, pizza, curry, crisps and anything up to 3,500 cals although my TDEE is around 3,300 because of my build, sex and activity levels. I keep my protein levels down, I'm not a great meat eater but do eat meat, I have no concerns at all whether something has carbohydrates in it but avoid most of the time very high GI foods but not all of the time. I eat a diet high in oats, fibre and veg as well as other 'less wholesome' foods and the only supplements I take are ALIMAX garlic tablets and Boots own label Omega 3 supplement.

 The first column was the score in the July blood test the second the score now and the 3rd the recommended normal range. The results on the whole are pretty amazing.......



Cholesterol overall 4.1 / 3.4 / 3.0-5.0

HDL good Cholesterol 1.35 / 1.5 / 1.0-3.5

LDL bad cholesterol 2.3 / 1.6 / 1.0-3.00
 -
A very good cholesterol reading and a huge improvement in the good to bad cholesterol ratio, especially considering my unrestricted diet on feed days


Trig levels .88 / .71 / 0.5-2.3
 -
Although Triglyceride levels were good in July they were over 15% better a few months later, this is also a sign of a liver working healthily


Liver Function Tests
:
ALT/SGPT Serum 46 / 30 / 0.00-40.00

Serum Protein level 71 / 69 / 60-80

Serum albumin 44 / 45 / 35-50

Serum globulin 27 / 24 / 18-36
 -
All markers basically going in the right direction with the main marker being within the healthy range for the first time in a decade


Kidney Function
Serum urea level 5.4 / 3.9 / 2.5-7.8

Serum creatine level 93 / 87 / 74-110

Serum Potasium 4.3 / 4.1 / 3.5-5.3

All fairly healthy with slight improvements. The drop in the urea marker probably down to my low protein diet showing up


Fasting Blood Glucose Level
 4.5 / 4.7 / 3.5-6.0
 -
Up slightly and I think it was in July from the previous one so will watch this.


Serum TSH Thyroid function / 1.67 / .35-5.5
This wasn't done last time



I post these results because people have asked to see whether this WOE has health benefits as well as weight loss benefits so I hope they don't look like I'm saying 'look at me aren't I great'.

So overall in a matter of 4 months this WOE has has marked positive effects on some major body functions. Of course there may be other areas not tested that are going in the wrong direction only time and more evidence from others will tell.
However all I can say is I feel better than I did 4 months ago, my Liver and Kidneys are working better and my cholesterol levels are markedly improved despite me eating basically anything I wanted...be it every other day.

It made the curry tonight taste all the sweeter....washed down by a cool pepsi with loads of ice of course :).