5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
=======

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
============

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[thisgirlruns]

Hellooo - I'm new on this board and a general MN lurker - fasting today and looking for moral support! xx

[bugsyburge]

Also a fast day for me today. I'm away for the night tomorrow having a catch up with friends so the weekend will definitely involve a fair few gins so I'll have fasted mon, wed, fri and had a more relaxed Saturday and Sunday ( although will try to be sensible with my food choices!!) and hopefully it will even itself out over the week.

DH suggested a Chinese for tonight but I'm sticking with my butternut squash and lentil soup instead...we can have a Chinese on Sunday instead!!!

So far today I've had 2 cups of tea with a splash of soya & lots of water. I've also managed to avoid the cheddars my toddler is trying to force feed me....I'm very thankful for our dog!!

Hope all the other FD are going well!!

[yumyumpoppycat]

{pops head in from bloodsugar thread}

Mootime that recipe looks brill, have found it on their website and happen to have an alien head celeriac and Kale in my fridge so going to make that thanks! H&H PS Mootime what is your 5:2 blood sugar schedule like?

Sorry for thread hijack

[Vibrantella]

Hello all, and congrats to all the SVs and NSVs (doing the trouser dance). I came down with a bad lurgy, 3 days in bed and 3 weeks of feeling sub-par - coughing and too tired to exercise (falling short even of the 10000 steps most days). Kept to good FDs, mostly, but NFDs are becoming a liability as I seem to be having treats throughout the day ("I deserve it, I've been so poorly, boo-hoo"). I might look into doing AFD for a couple of weeks, to help me rein in my indulgences. Or 16:8? Doesn't help that I've basically STS for a month or so - I suppose I should be happy I didn't put weight back on! I'm hoping that the arrival of spring will help, both in terms of having more energy to exercise, and having more interesting greens/salads to enjoy.

FD today, and as usual, it's going well with the water and black coffee. Meeting a friend for a late lunch at LPQ, will have a salad, probably Nicoise, and after that nothing but green tea for the rest of the day. I rarely drink alcohol, and when I do it's a glass of wine with dinner, so Friday fasting is OK. Tomorrow should be an easier NFD, as instead of sitting at home gorging myself, I actually have a work training to go to.

Good luck all fasters!

[doineedhelp]

welcome thisgirl you will get lots of support on here :)
Excellent SVs, keep em coming to give me strength / motivation to get through a friday fast... i'm day dreaming about what treats I can give myself tomorrow as i have also 'saved' around 1000 cals from my NFDs this week - i'm thinking some cheese :)

Oh yes bugsyburge, I second the help that dogs and greedy husbands give :)

[BigChocFrenzy]

Hello Friday fasters, I'm fasting too today
Say strong, everyone.
An FD on a day that is normally indulgent can really boost weight loss

At the weekend, if you tend to go overboard, you'd be amazed at the difference moderation, staying around TDEE, can make:
You don't spend the first few days of each week having to compensate - instead you immediately start progressing from last week

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome, this girlruns and good luck on your 1st FD.

The OP has lots of tips & resources to help in the HOW TO START section

Congrats on your SV and 2 stone milestone, clear
That must have made a great difference to how you feel - and also reduced your wardrobe.

Congrats on your SV too, MrD "ONLY a pound"
Those lb really mount up over the weeks.
Start practicing your Victory Dance for the next BMI class.

< waves to onlyweigh >

[BigChocFrenzy]

Vibrantella You are likely to sts if you are eating back all the FD deficit with NFD "treats"
"treat" = something special that you have occasionally, NOT frequently

To avoid frustration, wasted time & effort, you need to break out of this rut.
Deliberately train yourself into better habits

Back to Basics & Quantify, Measure:

• Start each day with a glass water and keep glugging, aim for 2litres
  . Keep a water bottle with you and refill frequently
  
• Calculate sedentary TDEE
  
• mfp for a full week
  . Logging in itself may make you think again about 500 cals biscuits or cake
  
• NO treats / snacks between meals
  . Only have treats as part of a meal
  
• Roughly plan NFDs in advance,, i.e. which meals and if you allow a treat with a particular meal

[thisgirlruns]

Thank you for the welcomes, very glad to be here! On the positive side, anyone else find that they are completely wired when fasting? As in hyper? I am rattling through my work like a crazy lady. Although that could also be the prospect of an early finish, a haircut and a good weekend ahead..

[Captainladder]

Gooooooooo Friday fasters! Hope all of you are doing well. Scales say 85.4 today, I think most of it was water! NFD for me today, but NO SNACKS... So far so good. Beetroot soup with oatcakes for lunch - Woking out what's for dinner now... Trying to cut down on wheat too.

Have a lovely day all X

[PooFlower]

Hi everyone, I've been lurking on the BSD thread and thought I would pop over and ask for some advice.
Me and DH started the Blood sugar 8 week diet on Monday. So far so good. I am finding it very easy. The less I eat the less I seem to want, although I have been geting quite snappy. DH is managing but has been very tired (he has a physical job).
I have a lot to lose at least six stone. DH is about two stone overweight.
The problem is it's coming up to the weekend. That usually means nice food and wine in our house. You aren't meant to drink at all on the 8 week diet. We are going to stick it out this weekend but it already feels a bit boring and deflated. Then we have easter next week.... but then there is always something.
I have been thinking of trying to do the 800 cal low carb diet for four days per week combined with eating and drinking what we like in moderation at the weekend.
I would be grateful for any opinions on this.
I tried 5.2 but found it hard to get back to fasting after non fast days so that could be a problem. I am a bit all or nothing with diets and have yo yo dieted all my life so want to avoid that trap.

[PersisFord]

Hi everyone, just checking in to do a little Friday fast dance for the hardcore ones!!! You can do it!!!!

MrD I'll choreograph (sp????) a special BMI dance for you for when you hit 30. The way you are going, I'd better crack on with it!!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Hi PooFlower

The full BSD is for those with insulin resistance / pre-T2 who want to lose a lot of weight v quickly AND who are prepared to give it 100% for 8 full weeks.

Alternative:
There is also a 5:2 BSD version, which is 2 days per week on 800 cals and the other days at TDEE. Or you can do 4:3
BUT that means every day has to be low carb Mediteranean.
You could drink wine (not beer) within nhs safe limits, i.e. 1-2 glasses, on the 5 NFDs.

What you suggest - eating want you want on 3 days per week - would really slow down weight loss:
With the BSD, like any low carb diet, if you eat a lot of carbs some days then you are out of ketosis, so you lose a lot of the effectiveness.
If you have issues with insulin metabolism, then you are more likely than most folk to stop losing weight if you add back sugar, starchy carbs, alcohol for part of the week.

Also, people who are very overweight have usually got that way because their natural eating & drinking portions are far more than their body needs.
So, on the 3 "moderate" days you would eat back a lot of the deficit from the 800 cal days.

If you find low carb too tough, then I suggest:

• Change to 5 x 800 days and make your weekend 2 days, to restrict the damage.
  
• That should give a decent rate of loss, but if not, then mfp for a full week, for a reality check on intake.

[PooFlower]

Thank you BigChocfrenzy That is very helpful.

I think the alternative BSD might be better for DH. He does need to lose some weight but is doing this mainly to help me.

I think for now I will stick with the 8 week plan. I am finding the diet surprisingly easy. I don't have blood sugar problems but I do want to try and lose the first few stones quickly, hopefully to spur me on. I have never low carbed before and am enjoying eating good wholesome nourishing food. I think it is mainly the thought of the Easter break I'm struggling with but there is always something happening so I won't use it as an excuse.

[BigChocFrenzy]

PooFlower With a very active job, the 5:2 BSD should suit your DH better and he'd still lose well, if stays low carb
Don't be surprised / indignant (!) if he manages to lose as quickly as you do - it's because he's a bloke < curses ! > Their greater height, muscle mass & testosterone usually means they can lose much more easily than we can.

[littlepooch]

Evening all!

Just checking jn - FD going ok here, I've never done a Friday fast day but needs must and surprisingly it's been ok. I'm sure I'll fancy a glass of wine later but must remember - I can have it tomorrow if I still want it.

Hope all other Friday's fasters are doing ok and that everyone is looking forward to the weekend!

[Theonlyweighisdown]

Well ended up finishing at 604 kcal today. Not too happy with that but it's still a decent deficit. Trying to adopt a 16:8 approach on nfds especially over the next week. It's my birthday Easter Sunday so I am expecting cake and chocolate to make an appearance. I have decided to just weigh myself once a fortnight - for some reason I seem to put on/sts one week but lose the next.

I find I feel a bit down after no obvious scale victory so I'm changing my focus from scales to how my clothes are fitting. While scales are not reflecting a loss each week my clothes are definitely telling a different story. I found a jacket at the back of the cupboard I stopped wearing cause it was way too tight that I am now wearing again and my jeans are definitely getting looser.

[BigChocFrenzy]

600 is a decent FD, onlyweigh Absolutely NO reason to be down.
It was a tough fast for you, but you didn't give up and you have achieved almost the full calorie deficit.

Congrats on your inches NSV - that is lost fat and makes a real difference to your shape and health.

[doineedhelp]

Kitchen closed at 548cals 😁 happy with that considering it's my first Fri FD... it wasn't too bad really. Going to have an early night to stave off any further temptation. Hope you all have a great weekend 😁

[Theonlyweighisdown]

Thanks bigchoc. It could have been a lot worse...my dd requested macaroni cheese for her dinner tonight (puppy dog eyes I just couldn't say no). Got my dh to taste for seasoning and managed to resist the temptation to nibble on the cheese while preparing it.

[doineedhelp]

Omg! Weighed this week and down another 4lbs, I can't believe it, that's 15lb since 15th Feb, I've never ever lost this much weight in such a short space of time 😁 I know it will slow down but bloody hell, it's amazing....

Hope everyone else has a good day...😁

[Clearskies99]

Morning all!

Haven't kept up with all action yesterday but welcome newcomers and well done Friday fasters and non-fasters!

Congratulations DoI it's very motivating at the start isn't it, like our bodies really really want to lose that fat if only we'd give ourselves the chance! And 5;2 seems to be that chance....

Yay to everyone who resisted nibbling at family's food, etc yesterday.

theonly I'm really noticing how much unconscios eating it's possible to do while cooking family meals, clearing up kitchen ,etc. It's such a good habit to break. And previously tight clothes fittting is fantastic! Can't be argued with, can't be a random blip on the scales.

MrD every lb counts- celebrate each one as it goes!

thisgirl yes I can feel buzzing on FDs - and try to make use of it and get lots done


Yes indeed BCF another NSV victory here - another black bin bag of too big clothes going out to recycling

Have a good day everyone. Gonna try for a mini FD today to keep weekend potential for excess in check. It's not alcohol for me as I scarcely drink, just can easily eat a bit too much if I don't concentrate on what I'm putting in my mouth!

NO SNACKING is my mantra!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Morning all
My Friday FD was a whisker under 500 and I've woken up not hungry at all. I'll just eat when I do.

Congrats on your SV, need 15lb is in about 5 weeks is an excellent start.
Don't forget to monitor waist & hips too, or just clothes fit, for additional motivation.
You are obviously in the zone, so keep on track and make the most of this time.
Yes, it'll probably slow later, but even then the loss really mounts up over the weeks.

[littlepooch]

Morning all

Well done doi - fantastic loss this week and overall! You must be dancing with happiness!

Good luck clear for your mini day.

A sneaky peak at the scales shows another pound off but I'm not counting it as its not my official weigh in day (but good to keep me going over the weekend!)

I too shall be attempting to keep overeating and too many treats at bay. Luckily I am going to my mums for the weekend with the baby as DH is away and whilst I can't wait to have lots of home cooked meals made for me by mum she is very healthy and runs a very healthy household so I won't have much I need to resist really anyway as her cupboards lack many treats (except wine but I'm not a massive drinker).

[doineedhelp]

Thanks everyone 😀 like you bcf I've been up since 6am and not felt hungry yet after FD yesterday, should I leave it and eat when I feel like I'm hungry or break the fast?