5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Wow bcf that's amazing!
Really struggled this weekend, I always do on the weekend as too much going on and nor enough time to mfp and plan properly so no idea if I was under or over tdee (guess I'll find out when I next weigh) I need to plan better and STOP SNACKING! Grrrrrrr

Anyway, good luck any Monday fasters

Morning all

happy monday

Well done on the Sunday FD BC, especially with all that exercise!

I'm having a TDEE day here, have knocked 100 cals off my TDEE as I want to get used to eating closer to goal TDEE so am going to keep 100 cals below what is officially needed for the time being. Not enough to make a drastic difference weight loss wise, but enough to make a difference mentally I think.

Morning everyone

Back on the ol FD today, just about finished 1st litre of water. Feeling a bit cold but soon time for a cup of herbal tea.

Good luck to all my fellow fasters!

Monday faster signing in, feeling quite positive today.

Good luck everyone.

FD here as promised. Coffee & water so far, cauliflower soup later.
Good luck everyone.x

FD here but feeling quite tired , didn't sleep well and feeling cold as a result! Does anyone else get this??

Had my shake already. Will have another at lunch.

Hi all.

FD today, and not really feeling it but have to keep in the habit so am determined.

I find that having relaxed over all food at the weekend I just get used to feeding my face, and have to get back out of the habit on a Monday.

I use time milestones to keep me going, anyone else? ie. right have got to 11.30, can easily get to 2pm, and then when I get there I say right can get to 5pm, and so on until it is time to eat at about 6.30/7.

I save all my calories for then so that I can have a big healthy meal and not go to bed hungry.

Good morning (just about!!) all!
Can I join all the Monday fasters? Going fairly well so far.
BCF - wow, that sounds like an amazing FD!!
Iam- I like that idea...breaking time down into smaller chunks makes it seem less daunting.
Having got back in the zone on FDs, I now really need to get a grip on NFDs. I just eat and eat and eat.
I've decided to stop buying multipacks of snacks etc and if Ds wants something like that he can walk round to the shop as and when he wants it. I can't stop myself from eating them when I know they're in the house!!

Morning All.
Good Luck to all the Monday Fasters.
Sunday was a bit of a strange one for me, we took the kids to a theme park and I lets just say I used the opportunity to stuff myself full of crap. I did log it all on mfp and i wasnt too over but i felt so ill after eating loads of crisps etc i had to go to bed at 8.30pm. Lesson well and truly learned!! Back to a TDEE day today then FD tomorrow.

Weight training today, Im building up to a fasted training session maybe next week once ive bedded in 5:2 wise!!

Hello all - where did the morning go? FD today, after a very reasonable TDEE weekend, but a slightly elevated blood glucose due to another virus I'm fighting. Third this year. I suppose it's the diabetes that makes me more prone to colds? But with all the healthy eating and 5:2, I would have expected a stronger immune system...

BCF, that was an epic FD! Something to look forward to, currently my longest weight training sessions are under 20 minutes. I am working hard on building muscle and tightening my belly (and upper arms), but I still have almost 2 st (1st10lb, currently) to shed and most of it from my gut! I've lost over 5st but I'm still apple shaped, due to PCOS which I had for 25 years, before being diagnosed with T2D. Definitely still in the getting-rid-of-excess-fat mode, not ready to maintain yet.

Cheeky I too was at 40 BMI when I was diagnosed with T2D, like your DH, but also almost twice his age. I found it useful to eat low carb, as that was not elevating my blood glucose (important to test regularly, after every meal at first - buy the gadget if the GP doesn't prescribe it, it's worth every penny). That allowed me to keep my BG under control and shed fat - I only added 5:2 into the mix after a few months, when the weightloss started to slow down. I'm still low carbing together with 5:2, and the fat is still melting off. BCF, as usual, has given excellent advice, and I'm the living proof it works.

Good luck all fasters!

Blossom, I used to do that, and more! It suits me to fast for exactly 24 hours (bit more is OK - preferably not less), so I count each chunk of that 24 hours.

Last night I finished my dinner at 8pm - generally I like to start at 6pm, but I'm off out to a meeting at 6 tonight, and I'll catch the last bus home at 8pm. (This is deepest, darkest Somerset, here, folks! ).

By midnight last night I'd done 4 hours - or 1/6th. Meaning I had 20 hours to go - or 5/6ths. But the gap between the positive and negative was only 16 hours. Went to bed at 2; that's 6 hours, or 1/4 down with 18 or 3/4 to go. Gap now 12 hours. Up at 10am - 14 down only 10 to go. Gap is now positive at 4 hours. This increases by 2 hrs every hour right up to 8pm when the gap will be plus 24 .

I don't do all that these days, but I did in the beginning. If I wanted some real distraction, I'd convert all those figures to percentages! Now I just count hours gone and those to go. ATM, that's 19 gone, 5 to go.

Just had a sneaky mug of cocoa to give myself a rest from black coffee.

Cheeky, please pass on my good wishes to your DH - I'm sure he'll thrive on a combination of Dr M's BSD and 5:2. Best thing I ever did, health wise, was to start IFing!

(Watch out for him losing weight faster than you! )

Great post, Vibrantella! Very encouraging.

Vibrantella thanks for sharing your story. I really hope he has the motivation to carry it out. I can do all the research and tell him what needs to be done but ultimately only he can be responsible for his health. It's been unfortunate that it's been one thing after another and he has often resorted to food as a comfort.

B&w - I do that when I'm swimming. I have 128 (12.5m) lengths to get through but find it so tediously boring sometimes. I usually just count them, normally but if I'm struggling I work out the fraction or %. Once I get to 50%, things get easier 😀

Bread and wine thank you also! He'll be touched.

Checking in as I've been away from technology for the weekend. Fast day today & going well. Just about to have my only meal of the day.

I've got to b2b fast today and tomorrow which is annoying but at least it gets them out if the way early doors!!

Hope all your Monday fasts are going well... can I ask if you do b2b are the calories higher? I usually do Tues and Thurs as FDs but at conference this Thurs so wasn't sure whether best to do b2b or FD on Friday.

Keep going, Monday fasters, not long until supper

need Most people find b2b too tough and from your posts, I suspect it might throw you off track.
So, I strongly recommend Friday FD - at least it removes Friday night indulgences from the weekend.

Those who do b2b can have 650 cals per FD instead of 500 and ideally make those FDs low carb - this info is from the protocoll for b2b low carb human trials by Dr Michelle Harvie, who was funded by breast cancer charities.

cheeky I hope reading Mosely's BSD book motivates your DH.
iirc, that's the book where Mosely relates how he visited a man with T2 the night before an operation to amputate his foot - and saw that the hospital were still feeding him a high carb diet.
With T2, outcomes vary hugely depending on whether the patient is prepared to make permanent diet & lifestyle changes.

I don't know if when your DH previously tried to lose weight he followed a low fat / high carb diet ?
Since he has T2 now, it indicates his body had a long-running inability to handle carbs. Hence he would have found it very difficult to lose on that WOE.

If your DH joins you on 5:2 BSD, be prepared for the fact that - as on all diets - blokes usually lose a lot more quickly if they do it properly. and don't grind your teeth On the full BSD, he should lose very quickly indeed, but it is a tough diet.
For T2, what is most important is reducing the waist, with goal being waist less than 0.5 height. So, measure his waist at the beginning and then every couple of weeks.

Blossom, Vibrantella That FD training was not as hard as the 1hr Advanced Weightlifting class that I did Tuesday and posted on the 5:2/ IF Exercise Thread - our trainer is a pro and totally evil

Yes I think you are right bcf so a Friday FD it is 😁

You are amazing BCF!

Why oh why did I weigh myself this morning? POUNDS heavier than I was on Friday. I must resist until this Friday.

Anyway, it's my second fasting week, and my third ever FD today. Heading home shortly for my meagre dinner

I've had a splitting headache today and almost gave up the FD thinking that body is perhaps too stressed. But then I kept thinking it's almost over now and would be such a waste. It's still banging though. Going to have a grilled chicken wrap soon.

DH started 5:2 today. Thanks for the warning re him losing weight quicker! He has told me he has had :

Whey protein shake by PhD - 200 calories
Red bull - 100 calories
Chunky veg soup - 100 calories

He's now going to have oven cooked cod with veg.

Dietname Weighing right after a weekend ? You'll depress yourself !
Weigh consistently. Most colk choose either daily or every 1 / 2 / 4 weeks the morning after the 2nd FD
However, it does highlight a heavy weekend that may affect your weight loss, this week - the 1st FD may be used up compensating for that.

Cheeky That's good news your DH is 5:2ing
Please pour any remaining full fat Red Bull down the sink - it is packed with sugar (& caffeine); sugary drinks are dreadful for T2 !
Try to convert him to fizzy water with ice and a slice of lemon. If he must have a sweet taste, then Coke Zero or Red Bull Zero would be much better. Don't have fruit juice either.

With T2, he must get in the habit of reading labels first.

That's exactly what I said! He replied that there was a can in the car and he mindlessly just had it. Next obvious step is to eliminate all junk from house car work drawers!

I'm on my 3rd FD having strated 5:2 last week. I've come in over 600 cals again. I just don't know how you lot are doing it. I get so hungry. I think part of the problem is that I'm up with my toddler at 6.30am so my days are long. But I'm telling myself that 600 cals is still v low - low enough to count as a FD and make a difference. Isn't it??

Don't worry, chocwoc Some people need several weeks to get down to 500.
You'll lose ok on 600 cals. You don't have to be perfect. Just do what is sustainable.
I suggest for now you aim to keep within 650 cals (we allow that for b2b anyway) until you feel your body has adjusted to fasting. When you feel ready, go down to 600, then 550, finally 500.