5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

It is the NFDs that usually determine how well you lose. If you manage around TDEE, you'll be fine; if you go much over TDEE, that'll slow yourloss.

Choc - my FD are about 600 most times, its the nfd I need to watch.
Kitchen closed at 590 today. OK for a first proper one.
Hope Monday was kind.

Thanks BigChoc and Annie. That gives me hope because my NFDs are regularly coming in at about 200 cals lower than TDEE with hardly any effort at all. In fact it made me realise that before I even thought about doing the 5:2 I probably often ate below 2000 cals in a day without realising it (apart from days when I would have a massive chocolate binge - it's those days that were the problem!)

BT what does b2b mean? Back to back as in consecutive FDs?

BTW

Heading home shortly for my meagre dinner

52dietname, In over 4 years of IFing, I have never had a meagre dinner - not on FDs, not on NFDs. I've always felt replete - stuffed, mainly!

Have a look at this.

Or this, at 75 cals for the whole meal.

And there are loads of filling low-cal meals on the 5:2 Fast Day recipe thread.

Nowadays I don't bother to count calories in my veg stews. I've made enough to know that 6 or 7 veg in season, with a tin of tomatoes will average out at around 30 cals per serving spoon. With about 3-4 served up on a plate - 5 at a pinch - I know that dinner will come in at less than 150 cals. Sides extra, of course.

Choc - that's right b2b FD approx 650cals.

I came in just over 500, I need to start cooking as I am reliant on pieces of fruit and M&S on my fast days.

TMI but I think I may be constipated, I also had a bit of IBS on Friday. My gut really does not like change😕. Last time it settled so hopefully it will again.

I usually fast on Monday but delayed it knowing a retired colleague always gets me a cream cake when I visit her about quarterly. Wishing now that I had the first FD under my belt! Don't even much care for cream cakes! Peaceful night one and all.

My dinner wasn't that meagre in the end! A load of salad with avocado on toast and a fried egg. Delicious!

What's the most amount of FDs you could do b2b?

I remember a doctor telling me to eat circa 800 calories a day every day to lose weight. Which seems ridiculous. But you would lose weight I guess.

Morning everyone Any Tuesday fasters ?

Lucked Several IBS sufferers have reported that 5:2 eases symptoms.
However, I suggest you don't have more than 1 portion of fruit on FDs, or even leave it for NFDs - the acid can upset a sensitive empty tum. So can chilli etc.
Avoid fruit juice any day, concentrated acid (and sugar)
Filling and gentle on the tum: Fish, chicken, turkey, eggs, beans, lentils and of course loads of veg.
A stirfry is v quick, so is scrambled eggs or veg omelette or salad.

dietname b2b, even on 650 cals, is too tough for most folk, especially if you find one FD tough.
Since you nail NFDs so easily, you should lose weight very well with your 2 non-consec FDs of 600+ provided you avoid any choc binges.

To satisfy the urge for choc, I recommend 1-2 squares of Lindt Mild Excellence 90% cocoa choc, super healthy, almost no sugar. Even fine on FDs
It is an acquired taste for a few weeks, then suddenly you realise how chocolatey it is. I don't know anyone who has ever binged on it

Your doctor wasn't crazy - the full BSD I referenced for cheeky is 8 weeks on daily 800 cals, but must be low carb Mediteranean to work safely. It was based on human trials at Newcastle Uni Hospital and research funded by Diabetes Uk.
It was designed to reverse preT2 or T2, but anyone with weight to lose could do it; however, it is MUCH tougher than 5:2 and does not allow any normal social life.
Also, it is a shortterm kickstart and people should afterwards to move to 5:2 BSD to lose the remaimder of the weight.

Morning everyone! I've been lurking around for a while, plucking up the courage to join in - again! I lost about 3 stone a couple of years ago following this woe, then I think suffered from the "mission accomplished" attitude, and have put a couple of stone back on in the last two years. Still 14 lb better off than when I started, though!!

My problem is the NFDs now. I really don't like counting calories, so have a "set meal" on fds, which works fine for me although I can see it might be boring for others. Time to bite the bullet, I think, and dust down the MFP app. The encouraging thing is that I still find fast days quite easy, and they really do become part of the routine.

Hopefully I've learned my lesson, that this really is a way of life and not just a diet - and that's the one thing I'd pass on to anyone doing this SOLELY for the weight loss. You can't just go back to the woe that made you overweight and unhealthy in the first place.

B2B FD here, all going well. Can see there's lots of news to catch up on thread so will check in later to catch up with you all

Have a good day everyone, fasters and non fasters

B2b, hardcore clears!!!!

Does anyone wake up at silly o'clock after a FD? Wide awake at 5, did get in gym early & do a nice hour.
All have a good one. X

FD here too, got meetings all morning with biscuits and lunch sigh I will resist and have my subway salad 😀 good luck all tues fasters 😀

Morning all

Tuesday FD here, I'm really pleased with myself as I weighed this morning and I'm slightly lower than after the second FD last week already - so I just need to hit 2 good FD out of the park and keep being sensible on NFDs for a good loss this week! (I'm one of those that fairly regularly uses the first FD of the week to lose any bloat gained at the weekend!)

FD here too. Am starving though, tummy is rumbling away. Think hormones are a bit all over the place at the mo, so am choosing to blame that. Have also gained a pound, but no matter, slow and steady wins the race

Congrats on your SV MrD

Get glugging the water jengles!

Welcome back, mtum You'll soon get back in your old fasting routine.
Yes, Return to old WOL = return to old weight & waist
Many of us have set FD menus, so don't need to count cals.
However, many folk have got used to regularly eating more than their body can burn on NFDs - that's how they gained weight. They usually have problems maintaining and keep returning, or just give up.

Advice to All
I recommend anyone who either is losing too slowly, or returning after regain, to mfp for at least a full week.
Mfp gives a reality check wrt NFD portion size and also highlights calorie bombs that are hidden or in food / alcohol "treats". It helps retrain you to what your body actually needs / burns - any excess is of course stored as fat

You need to average NFDs within TDEE to lose well and then later to maintain longterm.
Even if your maintenance plan includes FDs, you'll need to eat within TDEE on NFDs to lose temporary holiday regain on maintenance.

Also, as I posted upthread, anyone who has lost more than a stone - especially who has yoyoed this amount or more - is likely to have a real TDEE that is lower than in any calculator, due to adaptive thermogenesis.
This effect can last a year or more, so you need to be watchful for this period in maintenance.

Rise above the biscuits do!

Well done MrD no takeaways made a difference!

annie i wake up really early sometimes post FD and can be buzzing, especially with a B2B- but get lots done!

welcome back mt and thanks for the WOL reminder for us all. NO SNACKING AT ALL on NFDs is really helping me lose more weight at the moment and get into much better eating habits that I am determined to stick with for life!

FD here too, i have decided to reorder them so fast when WFH otherwise i snack all day - at least in the office i am pinned to the desk. Paid will power .

You spoke too soon on the ability to binge on 90% lindt dark choc bigchoc, i love the stuff and i could most probably polish off the whole bar, but normally show enough restraint to stick to 6 squares. I have banished all chocolate from the house. DH is also a fiend and trying to lose weight so much easier on both of us.

Hi everyone, sorry not to have been here more. I am maintaining at around 63.5kg (a bit under my original target) reasonably easily with 2 700cal FD a week. I've been here since Easter ish, so that's ok. I am also trying to avoid snacks, avoid eating the kids leftovers, stay lowish carb and just have treats etc 1 day a week. Early days but I'm pretty pleased so far!!

That's interesting bringonsummer - I'd have thought fasting would be harder WFH. I'm WFH a day this week and had ruled out a FD on it but will rethink

52diet strangely i dont struggle too much with FD's. If i have declared it such i am quite disciplined. My problems lie in the NFD's so to be at home with no restriction on when and what is available to eat is heading for disaster. Took me a while to realise that though.

I resisted clear and munched my salad rather unsociably while everyone else enjoyed their 'brown' lunch

I plan my FD for when in the office too as I'd find it too difficult to be so close to the fridge brimming with goodies and end up bingeing

Good luck any other fasters, we're over half way there

well done do!

I find FDs easier too bring now that I have got used to them because I just have my set things I eat (salmon/tuna/prawn/egg/greens type of thing). I love the break from thinking about/planning food and the simplicity of it, like you said mtt.

It's the NFDs I'm having to work on - the 3 wholefood meals a day and nothing in between is going reallly well still, and if I want some sort of treatlike thing (rarely at the moment) I have it at the end of the meal. And water water water every day!

Great to hear it's going well persis| well done - you're officially a maintainer now