5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Welcome back Bimble you know it works once you climb back on that wagon

So many SVs. Well done everyone! Yayyyy!!!!!! to MrD cheeky 52 lucked MrsF ( hope I've not missed anyone)

do that is absolutely definitely a NSV people commenting on your weight loss AND being inspired to do 5:2 by you!

annie well done on tdee and 14:10. Don't worry about being over on the FD, you'll nail the next one

Thanks for wise words BCF as always - took extra protein rations with me today in case 3rd FD of week felt too much but it's going fine. Yes, am pushing a bit while in this phase of pretty effortlessly losing, sure I'll plateau/struggle at some point so making the most of the good times!. No snacking and making every calorie a nourishing one is helping too , zero junk

Good luck fellow friday fasters with the tricky evening bit!

Sorry, this thread moves so quickly and I am in a rush but well done all you clever people!!

FD today and have eaten nothing so far except for milk in my coffee and an absent minded lick of jam from my finger - it tasted so sweet it nearly blew my head off!!! also have a new raspberry and vanilla hand soap in our downstairs loo (to bribe the potty training toddlers to wash their hands) and it was all I could do not to squirt some straight into my mouth it smells delicious!!! Soup, lentils, eggs and yoghurt for dinner mmmmmmmm

Thanks for the welcome back!

Right, it's done, kitchen is closed and I'm on 589 cals for the day. Very happy with that. Need another litre of water before bed to get me to a decent amount drunk.

Might try to get another FD in over the weekend. Will be sticking with my no breakfast, no Coca Cola and smaller carb & protein portions plan, regardless.

No Shred though, as I've got post-holiday wheeze and my lungs are spasming. Hopefully get onto that tomorrow.

kiki what is the show you are doing?

Well done in the 3rd FD clear you are proper hardcore 😁

Hey persis know what you mean re: smells, go on put a bit in your mouth, guarantee you won't want to eat after that 😲 sorry (I am only joking!)

Welcome bimble 😀

Morning everyone.
Good luck with your show Kiki That must be so exciting

Wow, what a lot of lovely SVs & NSVs
Congrats to Lucked, MrsMental, dietname on great starts and to MrD, Cheeky on further SVs.
MrD You've lost about 50 lb now, so you know your body sometimes needs time to consolidate & recalibrate with a week or so at 1lb or even sts - your skin also needs time to retain elasticity.

Well done on your compliments NSV, need Always good to have independent confirmation

Hi vibrantella You've lost over 5 stone, which is fantastic and you've obv developed a WOL which is sustainable longterm for you.
Are you maintaining before losing the next chunk, or continuing with weight loss ?

Welcome back, Bimble What you eat & drink is far more important for weight loss than exercise.
So, you can concentrate on 5:2, especially learning to eat within TDEE on NFDs; just optionally add exercise when you feel ready. I suggest at least a short brisk daily walk though; good for health.

While you are returning to Happy Weight, I recommend you decide what maintenance plan would be sustainable - e.g. 5:2 and eat back the deficit / 6:1 / 13:1. Maintenance plans Here

If you return to your old WOL, you return to your old weight & waist

bcf Re: maintenance plans, with 6:1 would you also eat back the FD deficit? Or only for 5:2? TIA!

Morning all, scales have caught up with another 1lb loss this morning, so now showing at 14st 3lb - and back where I was before easter - happy dance time

jengles Eat back at least some of the deficit
Do so gradually if you have lost more than 10lb, e.g like this:

• Remain another 2 weeks on standard 5:2, to ensure goal weight is stable
• The next 2 weeks, EITHER stay on 5:2 and eat back the deficit of ONE FD OR go to 6:1 and don't eat back the deficit, i.e. TDEE on the 6 NFDs
• If weight is stable, then proceed to eat back the remaining deficit, provided weight remains stable
• Permanently weigh at least twice weekly and resume 5:2 if you regain (and you retain 10 days) 4 lb or 1" around the waist

WARNING: if you have lost more than 20 lb, then for the next year or more, your real TDEE will be lower than the calculated value, i.e. than TDEE for someone naturally your weight without dieting.
Varady says that after loss of 50lb+ , TDEE is usually 15% lower.
This happens with all diets, even if you retain muscle, as in 5:2. The effect is called "adaptive thermogenesis" and is one reason that regain is so common.

Thanks for that bcf, really helpful. I've still another stone to go - aiming for 8-13. My weight has fluctuated massively in last 4 years owing to 2 pgs. Was about 9-7 pre-dc1, up to 11-7, dropped to ~10-4 pre-dc2, then was 12 stone after dc2. Dropped to 11 stone without trying, so when I hopefully get to goal weight do I count that as a 28 lb loss or a 42 lb loss? Sorry for all the questions, but thanks so much for all of your invaluable advice!

Jengles It is very individual and not even a professional could say in your particular case.
I suspect that If the 42 lb wasn't on for very long, it would not reduce your TDEE as much when you lose it, in comparison to someone who has been that weight 10 years.

If your TDEE is say 1700, then the deficit from 1FD would be 1200 weekly, or 200 per NFD. However, if your TDEE has dropped 10%, that is nearly all the deficit. So you could use it for that if need be.
So, I suggest when you reduce to 1 weekly FD, that you keep NFDs within goal TDEE for say 3 months, to check your weight is stable at goal. You can tweak NFDs up / down gradually and obviously bank cals for the weekend as you do now.

My opinion is that 5:2 or 6:1 give the best chance of increasing your TDEE, because you would be eating more on 5-6 days per week than you would if maintaining without fasting.

Research has also shown that for all of us a junky diet - sugary crap, junk carbs, booze - can have the same effect as up to 8% more calories. So, keep junk & booze cals below 20% of total.

Rule #1 for maintenance rule is frequent weighing, then catching any tendency to regain while it is just a few lb and easy to adjust.
Rule #2 is at least a short daily walk.

Count from maximum weight to goal weight, so you will have lost 42lb, presuming that 12 stone was after DC.
So your real TDEE at goal for the first year would probably be below what is calculated for 9 stone, but would be roughly covered by the weekly FD. Over time, you can see if you can eat back that deficit, but not all in the first 3 months

Thank you so much bcf That all makes a lot of sense, and explains it very clearly. So helpful to have an idea what to ultimately aim for!

Bcf where do you get all this wealth of knowledge from?? Are you in this field of work?

Hi all, been outdoors and active and not on any screens so just a quick catch up with everyone....

Another SV here after 3rd FD friday - 1 and 1/2 lb down .

Significant NSV for me here too, an now in 2nd week of zero snacking and 3 healthy, delicious meals a day on NFDs so very very happy with that. Am getting used to eating plenty at a meal then nothing til the next meal and if I feel a bit hungry reminding myself that I just ate some good food a few hours ago and will be doing so again in an hour or so.

Well done persis on FD and not eating handwash!!!!

yay to MrD for another lb down!

Enjoy the sun today any southern UKers!

BCF- Can you give some advice for my DH? He is keen to start something for his weight and is impressed with my 5:2 results so far.

His stats
28 years old, 5 ft 6.5, 18 stone 2lbs. BMI 39.8

Recently diagnosed as diabetic.

I've checked the TDEE calc
2081 - BMR
2497 - TDEE at sedentary

He doesn't do any exercise at the moment (his mum is in poor health and we spend a lot of time caring for her). We have had quite a tough time in recent years with my pancreatic cancer diagnosis and then his mums poor health and the weight has just crept up.

His main issue with weight loss is he manages to lose approx 2 stone but then ends up putting it back on. He also lacks motivation when he doesn't see ongoing results.

Do you recommend he starts with standard 5:2? His GP is happy for him to proceed. We have an appt with diabetic clinic on 19may so will discuss it there also.

A bit behind with updates, have managed 3 FD so far. Friday was hard, I have awful pmt and the temptation to scoff chocolate was great. But I managed and have lost 4lb! The not snacking to keep to tdee on the other days is a big change. I've only managed one day of exercise though so want to try a bit harder there.

thebloodsugardiet.com
Might this be helpful for your DH cheeky& start with a 800 Cal on 5:2 plan. BCF will advise more no doubt.

The 'fuckit' switch has been. Pressed this weekend, for my up & coming birthday. Will fast tomorrow.
All doing really well. X

I imbibed several cocktails last night so def went over TDEE but stuck to 16:8 and period arrived this am so that explains last week's mental challenge!!

Cheeky Your DH has BMI 40 and has been diagnosed with T2, a horrible disease.
That must be such a shock for you both

You need to have a serious talk with him and be very supportive, but make sure he understands this is no longer about vanity or theoretical risk:

Diabetes is the leading cause of blindness in the UK, the leading cause of lower limb amputations around the world. It is a major cause of heart disease, stroke, serious kidney disease.

That should be all the motivation he needs to reduce weight - and waist - until he is within healthy range and to stay there.
He needs to change his lifestyle permanently - if he loses weight, but then returns to his old WOL, the problems will return.

That's excellent news that his GP says he can do 5:2.
I hope the diabetes clinic are equally supportive and don't push the useless high carb / low fat diet that usually just worsens T2.
They assume people won't make the necessary lifestyle changes, so just prescribe meds.
Your DH needs to cut out sugary crap and junk carbs.

For T2, I would recommend starting right away on 5:2 version of Mosely's Blood Sugar Diet:
2 x 800 cal FDs, 5 x TDEE NFDs and always daily Low carb Mediteranean.

If he finds this ok, then consider the full BSD (8 weeks on daily 800 cals) which has actually reversed T2 and preT2 in many people.
Mosely developed this with Prof Taylor, who won the Diabetes UK Banting award for his research on the basic diet.

To understand T2 and BSD, I recommend Mosely's BSD bookand if you like science, this is Prof Taylor's Lecture - T2 & how to reverse

Exercise,: A brisk daily 20 min walk is the minimum.
If your DH can also add 20 mins strength training (weightlifting, pressups, squats etc) 2 times per week, this can really speed up physical changes for blokes.

Thanks very much BCF, really appreciate it. I'll let you know how he gets on and keep you posted! He had a blackberry and therefore can't get the App so doubt he will be posting.

Evening all,

Have had a good weekend here, under TDEE every day - an having my only glass of wine this evening. Another NSV (I'm going with it) is that I've not ordered / eaten any takeaway style crap all weekend. Yesterdays main meal was a cottage pie an todays a sausage an linguine pasta bake (kids idea - adored by all). Kept to my pretty standard now 16:8 ish window an a good amount of water too.

Also - exercise has been tricky since DD broke her ankle - but I've had a few hours in the garden today, cutting / strimming grass, planting some flowers, and setting up the guinea pigs run (as well as getting 2 loads of washing on and line dried) so feel like I've been on the move more again today! (have really missed my morning walks on the school run, but won't mention that in front of DD - she's fed up enough as it is!

Cheeky - that must be scary for your DH - hope he gives the BSD a good go, the science behind it really makes sense and could turn it around for him. As always, BC is our font of all knowledge

Congrats on the SV clear

Annie - happy birthday for when it comes, back to the fasting tomorrow!

Wishing your DH good luck with the blood sugar diet, Cheeky, it sounds perfect for him. And an advanced Happy Birthday to you, Annie.

Feeling very happy to be back with this WOE, and aiming to stick with it properly. Haven't fasted again since Friday, but am sticking with 18:6 and my calorie intake is drastically reduced 1200 yesterday and 1345 today, even with apple crumble for pudding!

I sneaked a peak at the scales this morning and am already 4lbs down, (woohoo!). Won't weigh again until next Friday morning in order to give me a true picture.

Feels such a relief to be giving my body a break by fasting again. Have had a near constant headache for the past few days, but I'm pretty certain that's down to a return to allergies and some muscle strains. Have been drinking about 2.5l water daily and getting plenty of salt.

Right, am rambling now, so will be quiet!

Congrats on your SV, DropZone and on your No Snacking NSV

Well done on the No Takeaway Crap NSV, MrD They are unhealthy calorie bombs. Your own cooking is much better, the DCs appreciate it and you save money too.

Well done on your SV, Bimble and staying within TDEE.
If you are having FDs, not just daily 16:8, then your headaches may be because you have a large weekly deficit from the NFDs as well as FDs, while you are not yet used to fasting. If you aim closer to TDEE for the first couple of weeks, that would ease you in more gently.

Also, your body may need more sleep in this phase, so pamper it with 8 1/2 hrs in bed.
You said you were getting plenty of salt, but try adding a teasp of Marmite for a few days, just in case.

I've completed my Sunday FD and really enjoyed it
I had a lie-in, then a long fasted gym session: 11am spin, then 2hr heavy lifting ( long recovery breaks) and a 40 min walk to cooldown and relax.
I have a 15 min cycle to / from gym, very enjoyable in the sun.
I've had plenty of veg & protein, watched a scifi film and I'm having an early night now to enjoy my scifi book (#5 this WE)

Morning fellow Monday fasters.

I've had a bad night and today is going to be a struggle...lots of black coffee I think