5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done, everyone. Lots of positivity and brilliant results
< prepares to do Happy Trouser Falling Down Dance for clear and anyone else due a wardrobe change >

Lots of amazing nsv

BCF you mentioned that the body will release water the day after the FD when it's TOTM. Is this likely to be when TOTM is completely over or just after the initial couple of days?

Also I've been experiencing heartburn. I think it could be because of my digestive issues due to pancreas op and the change in eating between FD and NFD. Has anyone else experienced heartburn?

My first FD went really well - had loads more energy than normal although found it hard to get to sleep.

Have eaten normally/healthily today but I am now having a glass of wine so I don't know if that's going to undo it all...

Good luck tomorrow persis

Am inspired by reading about people's victories. I have three stone to lose

My first fast day is done! I've gone a bit over though, I've had a skinny mocha, a cup of tea with a sugar and this for dinner. Total 583 calories.

My egg was a little over poached sadly

I'm having the second half for lunch tomorrow

Well done clear, fab nsvs 😀
cheeky I got really bad heartburn for a few weeks after I started but touch wood it has stopped now, just keep drinking the water.

Kitchen closed at 555 cals although I've really struggled today and could have eaten lots (very stressful couple of days! ) I just had to keep telling myself that I had gone most of the day as a FD and that it would be daft to get this far to not keep going. Just eaten chicken veg stir fry thing with some green beans and have a diet coke for once ds in bed... I will be strong 😆

Hope all other tues fasters made it!!!

Evening all

Didn't manage to get back to sleep this morning so pretty tired and will be having an early night tonight! (Well - earlyish)

No carb cravings really today and currently FD total is 407, might have a cup of tea and a rich tea biscuit as a supper (haven't eaten for 3hrs so should be fine)

Great NSV clear!

Not going so well here. Have managed a successful FD on Monday but have been starving all day today and eaten loads :( it was like this last week too, I really really struggled to stick to my TDEE and overate on 2 days. I'm not weighing myself as already feel blue enough about my huge appetite. Is this likely to settle down once i adapt to fasting? It's so frustrating.

Well done on an excellent 1st FD, tophat, 52dietname

Sleeping on FDs: Some newbies feel tired and sleep longer ! How your body reacts when getting used to fasting is very individual.

Heartburn on FDs: May happen to newbies, because your tum is nearly empty and while getting used to fasting may be more sensitive to certain foods:

• Very spicy food, lots of chilli / cayenne pepper etc
• Acidic fruit - e.g. oranges, apples, grapefruit, pineapple - or any fruit juice (concentrates acid) Cut out fruit juice (it is too sugary) and only have fruit as part of a meal, max 2 portions on an FD.
• Alcohol - you should NEVER have this on an FD anyway, because it negates many of the fasting benefits.
• Fizzy drinks
• Aspirin, Advil, buprofen

Cheeky retained water bloat is normally released during the 1st FD following end of totm.

I'm not aware of any particular problem that fasting would cause wrt your smaller pancreas.
However, I strongly advise against bingeing, especially on sugary carbs, because your pancreas might not be able to process sugar as well as before.
In fact, I suggest you move away from junky carbs like pizza.
Did you receive any advice about what / how to eat after your pancreas op ? If not, my recommendation is longterm healthy medium carb Mediteranean:
fish, some poultry & meat, loads of veg, beans, lentils, moserate portions of wholegrains, plain yoghurt, cheese, nuts, olives, olive oil, 1-2 portions fruit daily.

Tiredmum Are you tending to binge the day after an FD ? If so, that tendency should go once your body adapts to fasting, BUT some points to consider:

• Are you snacking between meals ? If so, STOP. That often leads to overeating
  You may need to increase meal size to avoid this - increase the protein & veg, not the starchy carbs.

• What are you eating on NFDs ? You may need to reduce the GI, to reduce hunger
  . Binges tend to be triggered by sweet "treats," carby junk, too much bread, alcohol. Try to reduce junk.
  . Start each NFD with a protein breakfast, e.g. bacon & eggs, or pnut butter on wholegrain toast.
  . Avoid breakfast cereals, fruit juice at all times - too sugary
  . Starchy carbs: Portion size of all starches in a meal should not exceed the size of your fist.
  . Move from white to complex carbs, e.g. wholegrain bread, brown rice, quinoa
  . Potatoes are ok, but try avoiding mash or chips for a while - they can spike hunger.

• Are you eating too much fruit ? Have no more than 2 portions per day, because fruit is very sugary and can spike hunger in excess.
  Veg is much better and usually more nutritious for the calories.
  A handful of unsalted nuts, or a small plain yoghurt, is a better pud

Oh and drink more water !

Yeah, not awful binging but definitely going over my tdee. I'm managing not to snack much but seem to be tagging snacks on to meals which defeats the point really. Some great points there, I have eaten a lot of cereal today. And toast. I started out quite well too. Onwards and upwards, will try to follow that advice tomorrow. Will probably be easier as not after a FD. Day after is definitely a tougher time to eat less than I want. I think mentally too as ive deprived myself so much the previous day that i feel like j should if you know what I mean?

tiredmum It may help to remember that NFDs are maintenance days intended to retain the FD deficit, not "compensation days" to eat back that deficit.

In your case, I recommend a weekly weigh-in, because we need to monitor how you are doing - if you have a lot of weight to shift, you may still be losing.
Weigh the morning after the 2nd FD each week.

You might like to try an alternative fasting approach, which can help those who struggle with fasting / over-eating cycles:
16:8 daily, averaging say 300 below TDEE, which provides a decent weekly calorie deficit.

Thanks for the snacking info, BigChoc. I've always been a snacker - I just get really hungry between meals bit I obviously need to include more filling protein in meals.

I did my first NFD today. It was odd as my TDEE is 2083 but I only ate about 1600 cals today and wasnt being especially careful though I did MFP everything. Here's what I ate - does it sound ok?

Porridge, skimmed milk, strawberries, blueberries, banana

2x Light laughing cow triangles

2 x Jaffa cakes

Homemade veg soup with 2 rice cakes

Onken fat free yogurt with grapes

1 Options hot choc with 4 no sugar marshmallows

3 oven cooked chicken drumsticks, baked beans, baked sweet potato chips, cherry toms, cucumber, lettuce

choc I have also under eaten on my first NFD and I did have a snack which I was hoping to avoid, I went to my mums to pick up the kids and she presented me with a cup of tea and a jammy joey! I couldn't resist although dd did help by consuming some of it.

We mostly don't have our dinner until after the kids are in bed, it's often around 8.30pm and I have lunch at 12.30 so I am going to have to plan something to eat when I get in from work or I end up hitting the biscuits.

Wow it's been busy today, on my way home and have some soup waiting so just checking in - FD today I went a bit over, after my soup I'll clock in at 630kcals but I was dizzy and weak halfway through the afternoon so had a handful of nuts to get me through as it was that or crisps as only food available at the theatre - thought nuts were a better choice!

18:6 tho so that's a bonus, want do to 4:3 this week but can only realistically do today, tomorrow and Thursday so might just do a low cal day tomorrow then back to FD on Thursday....or TDEE tomorrow then could try b2b Thursday and Friday, but that sounds a bit hardcore!!

Morning everyone Anyone fasting on a Wednesday ?

Kiki Unflavoured nuts are a good healthy choice if you need extra food in a hurry - definitely avoid junk like crisps on FDs.

Please do NOT attempt 4:3 if you felt weak or unwell on an FD
Your body is still getting used to fasting, so the stress of an extra FD would not be healthy. Wait at least 2 weeks, preferably longer.
Prioritise safe, healthy weight loss - you will lose more in the long run

Are you mfping NFDs ? For almost all fasters, the key to speeding upweight loss is to make sure your NFDs average within TDEE, not regularly adding extra FDs

chocwoc, lucked Don't eat if you are not hungry, but don't force an NFD much below TDEE.
No problem if you naturally end up below TDEE some NFDs - other days you'll feel hungrier or you'll eat more at the weekend.
Sometimes fasting reduces appetite for a while, because your body is in optimum fasting mode and burning fat for fuel. Just make the most of those days.

chocwoc Your menu looks basically ok; so long as you don't feel hungry and are within TDEE, no need to change your habits
No need to have low fat dairy unless you like it - If it is to reduce cals, then a smaller portion of full fat is usually tastier and more filling.
Also, if that is a ready yoghurt with fruit, avoid - buy plain yoghurt and add your own fruit.

Recommend for everyone: Try unsweetened almond milk
A healthy substitute for cows milk and only 18 cals for 100 ml.
Amazing any day, but especially for FD hot drinks.

Alcohol - Answer to someone upthread:

• Alcohol is fine on NFDs, within daily nhs safe limits
• Only FDs need to be alcohol-free

Thanks bcf. I was recommended to eat according to how i feel. I did suffer from heartburn for a long time after the op , regardless of what I ate and they explained this was a lack of digestive enzymes whilst the pancreas adjusted to coping. It has settled considerably now and X a rare occurrence but did flare up a few days ago.

NSV to report - DH said my pyjamas top was definitely looser and my face has slimmed down woohooo!

Congrats on the loose pyjama top NSV cheeky
If you avoid the FD irritants I listed, your tum should settle down as your body adapts to fasting.

Morning all.

FD today. Will be trickier as I have quite a few meetings today with the compulsory plate of biscuits. It was pastries yesterday which were even harder to resist.

Sorry violabiscuits aren't compulsory, step away from the biscuits.
Well done cheekyon a slimmed face & baggy PJ top.

2 meal plan feels better today than 3. Lunch was piri piri chicken salad with a tortilla. Even with 20g of guacamole spread on it was just over 400cals. T'was nice & filling.
Should come in well under tdee- today

Hello all, FD for me today...hopped on the scales this morning & officially into the 9s....woop woop. Spurred me into a decent workout & a lot of hot water and lemon. Planning nothing to eat until butternut squash soup for tea.

Stay strong fasters

Wow Bugsy single figures!!

They didn't even provide biscuits! The cheek! I alternated between being very put out and being glad I didn't have to put my willpower to use.