5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done everyone on the Monday FD's and good luck on the b2b clear that is hardcore 😀

FD here today, good luck to all the tues fasters 😀

I have a technical question here for Big Choc about hormoesis sp? I do Tue and Thursday FD in school hols and it feels a bit joyless compared to Monday and Thursday but it suits the schedule. If b2b is so beneficial/optimal why would a 3 day gap as you suggested to Hetty be better that a 2 for recovery? Just interested.

Morning all,

I did my first fast day yesterday. Was ok and I wasn't too hungry but I was very tired by early evening and I didn't sleep brilliantly.

Woke up this morning all excited for my scrambled eggs and toast then discovered I only had enough eggs to feed the kids! Couldn't send them to school hungry really so I had half a bit of toast. Very disappointing. Am now sat at my desk starving and waiting for lunchtime!

I don't think I drank anywhere near enough yesterday - in fact I don't think I even got through a litre of water so I need to watch for that next time.

So is it best not to snack between meals on NFDs?

Morning everyone,

Finished yday at 505 so not too shabby, going to join Clear on a b2b its my preferred way to do my FDs. Wondering though after reading the advice BigChoc gave about having a 3 day gap between FDs that would be better? I am losing slowly (9lbs in 5wks), totally happy with that obvs but since I have to lose 6st I did think I might lose slightly quicker at the start. In the end it doesn't matter if it takes 18 months or 24 months as long as it comes off .

Good vibes going out to all Tues fasters!

Titsy - you need to be drinking much much more on a FD. At least 2 litres, probably more. If you do, you won't feel half as hungry and you'll be feeling much better overall.

Jing - keep going, you'll iron out the kinks and before you know it half that weight will be gone (see - me!). The key for me, was drinking plenty of water ALL THEN TIME and keeping an eye on NFDs

well done on all the new fasters completing their first FDs, titsy for some reason I don't sleep well on a FD either, I wonder if there is a scientific reason for this BCF?

jing 9lbs in 5 weeks is a good loss i think anyway its nearly 2lb a week which over the course of a year would be way over what you need to lose

Jing I agree 9lb in 5 weeks is fab!
Id be over the moon

Successful Monday fast here, now is the tricky bit - the NFD's which have always been my downfall. Have mapped out meals which will keep me in check and done some exercise. But ive alreafy inhaled breakfast and lunch 😯 and am sniffing around for something else good to eat. Must be strong!

Well done everyone on successful FD's and varioys victories.

stay strong bringon I find NFDs hardest too... you'd think it would be the other way around. My advice, go and drink a large glass of water

Many people find they don't sleep as well while their body is getting used to fasting. Similar problems are reported by those on slow carb or paelo.
So, this suggests it is an issue of coping with much fewer carbs.

Low carb initially leads to low seratonin levels, which is known to cause sleep disruption. To raise levels, we need to consume a higher proportion of food containing tryptophan, which is a precursor to seratonin.
Sugary carbs give a quick fix, but don't last - and cause fat storage in excess.

Most people adapt eventually and sleep ok on FDs or on low carb.
I had no additional sleep issues. Did you, B&W ?

What helps:

• Eat most of your FD calories for supper
• Have a small portion of complex carbs - especially nuts, beans, legumes, brown rice, boiled / baked potato - with protein that has high tryptophan levels - turkey, fish, chicken, cottage cheese, eggs. Vegans have avocado, nuts, seeds. This is the one time on an FD when you might find a banana helpful.
• No caffeine after 3 pm
• Turn off all screens, phones and other electronic gadgets at least 1 hr before bed. The blue light is very disruptive to sleep, even from an alarm clock
• Try to have a routine, regular bedtimes and get up at the same time daily.

Titsy No snacking between meals, ever

< eyes hungry Summer > Are you snacking on NFDs ? Drinking enough water ?
Are your meals high GI, i.e. sugary, big carb portions ? Junky ?
Concentrate on protein, loads of veg, sensible portions of complex carbs, beans, lentils.
Avoid fruit juice & most breakfast cereals.
Also, Dr Mosely recommends against more than 2 portions fruit per day and even then go for the lower sugar fruit. Have a small handful of nuts as pud instead.

Fusspot Deciding on the intervals of FDs / NFDs is as individual as for HIIT in exercise: some need frequent intervals, some do better with one long period of loading and a long recovery period.

The best plan for FDs / NFDs is what suits your schedule, is sustainable and doesn't overstress your system - Hetty is a newbie and felt tired / weak, which suggested she needed 2-3 NFDs recovery rather than just 1 NFD.

Well done on your SV, Jing That's a good rate.
Separation of FDs won't have any effect on rate of loss, but if you want to see if you are losing at maximum rate, then mfp for a week - it is what you consume on NFDs that is normally key.
You may need to train yourself to eat within TDEE.

Also, check if you can improve the quality of what you eat, by cutting down on junk & alcohol (if you consume any)

If you have done all that, then you are losing at the rate your individual body allows, so just relax.

bigchoc there is no hiding it, i am one of lifes snackers. But i am trying very hard to be good .

I will also confess to a carb addiction. I tried to do low carb and lasted 1 day, at which point i was overwhelmingly miserable and conceeded id rather be fat. Also greatly dislike vegetables (with the exception of carrots green beans mushrooms and lentils). Maybe i am a lost cause?

But i actually dont eat that badly, everything is cooked from scratch (DH a very good cook). I eat salad and fruit. But i do soooooooo love bread.

I am remaining strong, you will be proud of me doineed

Hi everyone, have a massive presentation at work on Wednesday which is before I even officially finish my mat leave so I am STRESSED!!!!!!!! FD yesterday was not brilliant - ended up on about 800 cals but it was all protein and veg so I will not beat myself up, will stay inside TDEE today, tomorrow is a total write off as I have to schmooze people over dinner but possibly no opportunity for lunch so could go either way. Then am not going to have another FD this week - I don't feel psychologically up to it and would rather not try it and fail as that would definitely trigger my inner Fuck It All button!!!! So next planned FD is Monday.

Wish me luck everyone, it's a new job and I am SO DESPERATE to make a good impression. Am feeling quite weepy and miserable about it.....pathetic!!

Can I ask why it's suggested that you don't snack between meals ever? Surely if it's within your daily calorie allowance whether a FD or NFD it's ok? Just interested.

Thanks for positive words DoI and Cheeky. And of course BigChoc! I do eat a lot of carbs, but need to cut out ALL snacks. They've reduced but I still have little bits of DS uneaten lunch, gah. That late afternoon time is the worst for me . And you are right about the alcohol, I certainly drink at least less than half of what I used to drink pre DS but I do still like a drink on a Sat, sometimes a Fri too. I usually end up below weekly units but it would be classed as binge drinking. My problem is with cask ales, they're my favourite tipple but probably the worst with the calories esp depending on strength. Maybe should start on the !

Calm peris. You will be fabulous and they already know you are going to be fabulous, that is why you got the new job. And extra brownie points for doing big presentations before the end of mat leave. Am sure it will be a friendly audience. And big congratulations on getting the job!

Focus in one thing at a time. I know what you mean about the one bad day and giving up on the whole regime.

ooh good luck persis I'm sure you will be fab. I have to present for work and HATE it so I just make sure I practise over and over and over and over and over to get it right.

Good luck avoiding the 'fuck it all' button too

Half way through my first ever FD here!! Its going well so far. Im saving my cals for dinner. I did just do a small victory dance in town as my daughter just had chops and sausage and i stuck to the water!! Thanks for being super kind and welcoming...and 'i can have it tomorrow' has become my mantra too!!!

Chips not chops she is 9 and not on the paleo!!

Jing Do try to avoid binge drinking and stay within daily nhs safe limits
< yes, this is the healthy living side sneaking into the thread >
The liver is a vital organ for all metabolic processes in your body. It can repair itself, but only within limits.
Among another functions, the liver helps keep blood sugar levels constant and it breaks down fat to produce energy.

Booze encourages poor food choices, such as calorific nibbles, as well as containing its own cals.
It stops fat-burning for hours, because the liver prioritises processing the toxic byproducts.
Also, alcohol calories are preferentially stored as fat around the waist, where we least want them

I would suggest red wine rather than beer - healthier and lower carb. "Beer belly" is a well-known phenomenon.

chocwoc Reasons for no snacking:

• Snacks - even healthy ones - between meals keep the insulin levels raised. This tends to reduce fat-burning over the day.
  Research - as distinct from myth - suggests fewer meals are better for weight loss.
  e.g. The Scientific Evidence for Fasting section at the bottom of the OP links to a study which found that eating only 2 meals reduced body weight, HFC (hepatic fat content), fasting plasma glucose, C-peptide & glucagon more than the same calories split into 6 meals

• Snack food is often more junky with fewer nutrients than proper meals, e.g. biscuits. Often calorie bombs e.g. 400-500 cal muffins or fancy latte

• Those who eat snacks tend to consume higher calories total. Even if they eat less at the next meal, it is not usually enough to compensate for the snack. The raised insulin increases hunger.
  So, NFDs are more difficult to keep within TDEE.

Note: Advice to snack is really for young male athletes & weightlifters at the gym, who may need snacks to reach their 4000 TDEE on healthy food.
Women usually have the opposite problem - to avoid averaging more than their TDEE, which may be sub-1500 for a short sedentary woman at goal weight.

Persis You will be ACE on Wednesday.
You totally nailed the interviews and you will wow them with the presentation.
To relieve stress, I recommend you eat nourishing food, avoid junk & booze, then have a good walk tomorrow evening and an early night

Thanks for answering BigChoc.
Heading home shortly to feed the kids and wait as long as possible for a veg laden omelette/frittata for myself. I would not have believed I could fast till teatime when I first did 5:2. Hold on fellow fasters.

Wow it's busy on here today!

Big congratulations to everyone who's done/doing their first FD - they get easier as you get used to them.

Good luck persis with new job. Be gentle with yourself, any new job i s a big life event, plus the adjusting to leaving babypersis. it's OK to feel a bit weepy and then go and nail your presentation!

cheeky 1st weight loss I noticed was stomach (trousers got looser) but I think it's all over pretty quickly - hairdresser today said my head seemed smaller !!??

felicity snack-free YAY!

bring titsy drink loads of water it makes all the difference - feel better, lose more weight, curb cravings. I am/was a carb addict but since starting 5:2 mid-Feb am gradually reducing carb portion sizes, feeling alot better for it and losing more weight

B&W well done on letting go of some treats!

MrD that was early!!!!! Has day been OK? I find I crave carbs if sleep -deprived

B2B going fine thanks BCF everything has just clicked into place at the moment - lots of water, lots of exercise, healthy FDs and NFDs, No snacking on NFDs - it's all going really well for now and am loving 5:2.

Not just eyeing up the next trousers but NSV of size 14 (stretchy) now fit and need a belt too - Yay!!!!! {smile}

Keep drinking water everyone!

Clear, the head comment . & its very busy today.
Well-done all on trouser dances, no snacking banishing carbs & treats & getting jobs!!!! Did I miss anything.
FD went OK yesterday, 550. Should of gone b2b with more food & done today as well. Was hungry this morning and breakfast sets my hunger off for the day. I think I should do two meals in bcfupthread information. A brunch & a evening meal might suit me to reduce carbs. Will try tomorrow.