5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

well done bugsy fab SV

Just checking in. Thank you so much choc for all your helpful advice. My first FD went really well 478 cals for the day. Today ive been to the gym to do some lifting. Ive started strong lifts 5x5 and just did a bit of hiit at the end on the rower. My NFD has gone a bit like this today

Breakfast
Smoothie 528 cals
300ml Whole Milk
25g Lean Whey Protein
100g Frozen Black Forest Fruits
120g Banana
20g Porridge Oats

Lunch 363 cals

Ranch Salad
3 Chicken Legs (although 4 yo DS pinched one!!)

Dinner will be a spring green soup with 2 chicken legs which should be 368 cals.

My TDEE is 1700 so i will be around 400 cals under so i may have some ryvita with oeanut butter with dinner to keep it up

Second FD tomorrow, hopefully it will go as well as the first.

Well done bugsy great SV!
Finished yday at 496 and 0.6lb off this morning. Not bad since I couldn't complete a FD last week!
Started up knitting again in the evening to stop my mind wandering to food [clicky clack emoji].
Good luck to all Wed fasters!

Is there anything wrong with doing FDs on top of general calorie counting, I.e sticking to the 1500 calories mfp recommends I eat each day to lose weight? I'm grossly overweight so feel the FD will give a boost. Generally though I eat a bit more at weekends anyway so I wouldn't stick strictly to the 1500 every day anyway.

Well done bugsy!

52dietname I think BCF will likely come back and say it's better to keep to TDEE, but I also struggle sometimes and have to remind myself to eat enough

I do count everything on NFD, easing myself back in I'm rigidly sticking to 16:8 (except for a glass or two of wind once a week) and counting calories all days.

The weaknesss was more to do with the stress of the job this week, we're in tech so it's all hands o deck at all hours, too much coffee and sneaky cigarettes! Thank god for FD though, meant I had a good excuse to stay well away from the huge box of donuts someone brought in!

Made my lunch to take in today, lots of filling slow releasing energy and caps out at 600 so plenty left for a substantial dinner this evening (and a few almond milk lattes along the way)

DH mills his own flour to bake his bread, then adds in flax, chia and sunflower seeds - it's filling but so delicious (we live in the US where bread is disgusting and full of sugar) and so full of good nutrients so it's an almond butter and banana sandwich today with various nuts to nibble on

Thanks guys!!

Kiki that bread sounds immense...I could go for some of that round about now!! I didn't have butternut squash soup in the end...I made a veg curry as I had a load of odds and sods to eat up. Delicious and filling so that's me for the day.

Hope other Wednesday fasters are doing well.

52.. I'd say if you tend to over eat at the weekend then it would be wise to stay slightly under tdee on nfd so you have an additional deficit in the bank and therefore a few extra calories at the weekend not blow your weight loss out the window. However I would say that it has to be sustainable long term so perhaps work on trying to manage tdee so that you don't get into a feast and famine spiral.

I am however happy to be corrected by bcf

< excuse any typos - I'm doing my cooldown walk on the treadmill, with quivering muscles after 90 mins Killer Abs + Advanced Lifting >

Congrats on your SV, bugsy and welcome to single figures again
Well done on your 1st FD, MrsMental and on following with a no snacks NFD within TDEE.

Kiki < wags finger > If you smoke, please STOP.

dietname If you've a lot of weight to lose, you need to settle in for the long haul with a sustainable WOE you can continue for months.
That extra weight piled on over years, so will take several months to lose safely.

However, some folk in your situation have done well with a tougher kickstart before moving onto normal 5:2 - and moving to that is essential, to learn to eat normally around TDEE
1500 calories on weekday NFDs may not be too severe. What is your sedentary TDEE ?

Also, what is your TDEE at goal weight
Some folk who want to boost weight loss eat to goal TDEE for some NFDs, which also trains them how to eat at maintenance.
That system works well, provided you allow yourself to eat up to TDEE if the NFDs seem a strain

Kitchen closed on a very successful fast day. Was so busy at work I barely even had a chance to eat my lunchtime soup, and resisted all temptation of the meeting biscuits all afternoon (2 back to back meetings from hell).

Big bowl of veg stew for dinner with a couple of rice cakes for the crunch factor.

That has me at 380 for the day. Which means if I do get hungry before bed, I can have a couple more rice cakes with my tea.

I spoke too soon. I am so hungry now. I'm finding it very hard to resist making a big ham sandwich right now. I'm having to deploy all my distraction techniques...

Stay strong, vvv You've done so well all day and you'll kick yourself if you slip up now.
March to the bathroom chanting "I can have it tomorrow" and clean your teeth thoroughly.
Then pamper yourself, say by cutting & painting nails, toenails, personal care etc and have an early night.

vviola... whats changed in that half an hour? nothing - its all in the mind! Have a nice big glass of water and bet you forget it!

Don't worry BCF I smoke maybe two cigarettes during tech week which is normally only 2-3 times a year max

vvv To avoid future late hunger pangs, I'd suggest adding more protein, especially if you don't eat all your planned lunch
e.g. You could have had 100 cals ham on the crackers.
Or made the ham sandwich with lettuce & mustard, instead of bread & butter

I had no additional sleep issues. Did you, B&W ?

In the very beginning - after a couple of months, or so, I found I got quite euphoric - which gave me the odd spot of insomnia. I also found I got cold during the night at first. But these soon wore off - it's just the body adapting to the new WOL, I guess.

Having a good week, so far. 2 16:8s, no evening snacking and no added sugar. Only two days and it'll be the weekend!

Began my weekly fast at 6pm this evening, so I've already got 4.5 hours in the bank. Won't be any point in going to my new favourite vegan cafe tomorrow - although I might drop in and buy something to have with my dinner tomorrow evening...

The thread is so busy I have no time to post, as too busy catching up on the reading! Despite a long time lurking, I'm still learning new stuff all the time from the brilliant posts on here.

Very successful Mon FD, was going brilliantly for NFD yesterday and then it all fell apart with crisps and wine in the evening . Today has been a good NFD and I'm ready for another FD tomorrow.

Good luck other thurs fasters.

My current TDEE is 2,600 cals. At goal it's about 1,900.

Thanks for the tips. Maybe I'll do the kick start I need and then reevaluate

Another quick q - I want to log my exercise on MFP. I'm doing Ripped in 30 6 days a week - anybody know what I should acurately log it as? MFP only gives me the option to log exercise as strength or cardio but Rin30 is both. ..?

Also - and this is not a criticism as i'm new to this and know naff-all - but all you ladies who don't eat til dinner time on FDs - Is that ok - is it healthy to starve for such a large part of the day? I've only done once FD so far but I know I'm going to have to space out those 500 cals as evenly as I can. I would definitely faint if I only ate one meal a day.

52dietname With TDEE 2600, you must have madly tweaked mfp for it to recommend 1500 daily.
The usual recommendation is no more than 400-500 daily deficit.

I strongly recommend:

• Eat at least 1900 on NFDs, since this is your goal TDEE. Do NOT go down to 1500 - it will be too stressful and may even slow weight loss
• AND eat around 2600 for at least one day per week.

chocwoc Do NOT add calories for a specific exercise or day. Gadgets usually overestimate
Instead, calculate your TDEE, see link in OP, with the activity level for your activity level. Then consume this on average for all NFDs.
Never add back exercise calories on an FD, even if that leaves you overall minus that FD.

You will lose more quickly if you set the activity level lower than you think, because people generally overestimate.
For most people, exercise only boosts weight loss if you don't eat back the calories

Newbies tend to need 2-3 meals, but many experienced fasters - whose bodies have adjusted to fasting - find that 1 meal is easiest and more satisfying.
For weight loss, there is a small advantage in saving your FD calories until supper, but the most important thing is to find an FD system that is sustainable longterm for you, whether 1 meal or 3.

Saving all your calories until supper is thought to bring health benefits - research shows that fasting helps avoid certain diseases and conditions, e.g, see links to "Scientific Evidence for Fasting" in the OP.

Studies on people doing zero calorie fasts have found that their metabolism actually speeds up after 16 hours and only starts to drop after at least 70 hours.

Second FD of the week here, and have woken up hungry. Never a good start. Have been looking again at my tdee set at sedentry (1600), it is a wonder i am not a whole lot more overweight, i never ever manage to stay at it. The lightly active is a little more achievable, but only slightly and occassionally. I fear i am destined to be fat or miserable. ... . Or potentially both. Sorry feeling sorry for myself.

Morning all, wow this thread is moving fast 😊

FD here today, ended up having a couple of glasses of wine yesterday so the calories I had been 'saving' for weekend have gone now but boy were they good having an immensely stressful week with unexpected childcare issues for the next 6 weeks, going to take all my strength not to let this railroad me, I will be strong.

Anyhow, good luck to my fellow Thursday fasters 😁

Hi Bigchoc - great, thanks for the tips. My TDEE with my activity level is 2083 and MFP is telling me to aim for about 1400 which is what I'm averaging with not much effort so actually prob don't need to worry about taking into account my exercise?