5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

< whispers so as not to wake Baby Carrot > Congrats on your SV, carrot

Welcome, DropZone and well done on your 1st FD back

Planning FD meals in advance does make them easier
We recommend eating meals, no snacking in between.
You need these zero-cal spaces between meals in order to obtain the full benefits of this WOE. Even healthy snacks raise insulin levels and hinder fat burning.

Enjoy your fasted meeting tomorrow, B&W
You should mention to the pub that you are disappointed they have no vegan option. They could probably produce a plain mixed salad plus bottles of vinegar & olive oil, but that's a side, not a meal.
I'm an omnivore, but if I was organising a meal out and even one person was a vegan, I would check the place had at least one meal option that the vegan said they fancied.

btw, funnily enough I now have no problem watching people eat even chocolate if it doesn't fit my plan. That was what 2:5 gave me: the ability to enjoy sweet treats 1-2 days per week.

Waves to B&W hello old friend! Hasn't the pub got any sides you can veganize? So annoying tho - I really struggle to keep to my vegan diet when I'm home, you should come stay in LA, absolutely spoilt for choice!

Congrats on SV victory Carrots

3rd FD this week completed - slightly over in the end at 548 but that'll do

Hello hello we have had a terrible week here with one thing and another and I have not only only done one FD, I have been eating non-mindfully. Pulled it together for a good NFD yesterday but will now have to fast today....on a Saturday!!! Grim.

Lovely to read about all of the victories though! V inspiring!!

Anyone else doing a hardcore Saturday FD? I have been eating loads of sugar so this is going to be hard!!!

Got on the scales this morning after b2b fasts and I'm exactly 10stone!! ( 9.13.9 would have been nice to see though ). I'm really pleased though so I've been spurred on to a mindful weekend.

Good luck with the 17 mile walk today and i hope everyone has a fabulous weekend!

&'that's a great loss carrot, well done!!

Persis...as I was told earlier this week, put it behind you and move on. If you really think you will struggle to fast over the weekend then have two great healthy nfd and start afresh on Monday. Don't beat yourself up or worse, try a fd then give up part way through and feel even more de-motivated iykwim?

Good luck

Thanks bugs

Well done carrot and bugsy 😀 fab svs
Good luck on your sat FD persis

Had a successful FD yesterday after a terrible week. Feeling motivated again. Do people tend to practice 16:8 every week?

I mean everyday

Well done on your FD, cheeky
16:8 is a useful tool to get eating under control - the shorter eating window can help some people, so they do it daily. Also, the 16 hour daily fast may bring some health benefits.

Well done on your FD too, Kiki You are back in the swing and showing your experience.

Good luck on your Saturday FD, Persis I'm joining you - I usually do Saturday or Sunday,,because my weekends used to sabotage a food week's work.
I recommend you cut right down on sugary crap, say 2:5 it. Sugar spikes insulin and then insulin levels soon crash again, so you feel starving & maybe weak. So you eat more ... A cravings spiral.

Good luck on your umpteen mile walk, MrD
Don't forget: water, sweatshirt, tissues, report back to thread

Having nursed poorly DS last week I'm now full of a cold. Half the holidays gone. I'm working 2 days next week but won't fast if I still feel rough. Feel grim today. This is my first cold in a year though and I credit that to 5:2. Though the practice nurse almost laughed in.my face at that suggestion when I foolishly boasted 2 weeks ago at my asthma review.

I'm doing 16:8 every day at the moment to get myself under control - I used to not bother with breakfast and that had crept back in which led to mid morning pointless snacking and I'm terrible for late night pointless munchies, this is def where the weight has gained, so it's helping me reconfigure. I'll stick to it for a few more weeks then relax it a little

I've cut out alcohol except for one night a week and feel so much better for it too

hey all

Had a weigh in after 2nd FD of the week this morning and I'm now 14st 5lb, which is a 2lb loss on last week but still 2lb up from my trip away / week and a half 'off' . I'm happy with that - its back in the right direction and thats what matters to me! Don't think I have any reason for any more time off until my holiday mid-august so all will be good

so.... 17 mile walk! I'll get the important bit over with first, I did it

My god was it hard though this week! Had no company at all for the first time in a while, and the event pack arrived yesterday which sent me into a bit of a tailspin mentally - so I found it hard to get my head in the game and consequently, my pace was slower than normal.... but - its done. I bloody walked for 5hrs 15 mins, all on my lonesome and DIDN'T GIVE UP

so - that leaves a 20 miler and then a shorter 8 or so, and then the big day don't panic, don't panic

Its all getting a bit too real basically right now!

Persis - you know the deal... get your head in the zone, forget the crappy week and move on! Well done you braving a saturday FD though - hows it going?

Well done to the other SV's here!

MrD what is the event?

Fantastic exercise NSV, MrD Wow 5 hrs 15 mins walking - I suspect you won't go out dancing tonight You are very tough mentally to do that distance on your own - did you take music, or do you just chill into the zone ?
Don't worry about the 20 miler: you've done 85% of that today. Try to find a walking buddy though, much easier psychologically. There should be someone near you also entered for the moonwalk.

Hi all!

Welcome to new comers and returners - this is the place to be !

Some great SVs well done do carrot bugsy MrD

Hi Persis hope post -sugar FD gone OK !

Well done on 17-miler MrD ! Sure you'll be fine with it being a few miles more, just keep drinking that water!

Had 2 good NFDs here effortlessly avoiding all snacking, today NFD was knackered (down on sleep) and wanting to eat mid morning (but not actually hungry) but distracted self and got to lunch - phew!

Just done 12 mile bike ride and feeling better for it .

Delivered - its the moonwalk in london next month - a marathon walk overnight in my bra!

No music taken BC - though I did have various songs in my head at different times! Already planning company for the 20 miler! Even if its only for part of the way it will make a big difference! Have a friend doing the event with me but she lives a couple of hours away so training together is almost impossible! No... definitely no dancing tonight!!!

The water is definitely key clear - I got through 2 x 75cl bottles this time - though I also had to stop for a wee at the half marathon point! Well done on your NFDs clear, and the bike ride too - get you!

Hi everyone, FD done and it was v v hard as we were at a kids party all day so no coffee or water to get me through and LOADS of little cakes etc!! I did it though, the thought of BCF fasting too gave me strength

mrd, I am in awe!!! What about listening to a podcast or something? And what about on the night, will you have company then?? And thanks for the good wishes, I needed them!!

Hi clear cracking bike ride!

Great SVs bugs and carrots

Hi thanks for the support!!

I'm off to bed. Absolutely shattered!!!

you should come stay in LA, absolutely spoilt for choice!

Funny you should say that, Kiki, I remembered after I'd posted yesterday that Taunton has just acquired its own vegan cafe, only been open a week! It's so new it hasn't even got it's own website yet, so I can't link to it.

On the off chance that someone local is browsing this thread, it's called The Planet Cafe, and it's on Paul Street.

I went there prior to the meeting and filled up on a bean burger and cheese, followed by a large piece of chocolate cake. It was an absolute joy to just walk in and order something off the menu!

I say 'filled up' - I struggled to finish the cake, but there was no way I was going to leave any!

Then I went to my meeting and had a nice pint. Even if the pub could have accommodated me, I'd rather give my money to the cafe!

Evening all!

Big pat on back persis for successful FD hemmed in on all sides by fairycakes and no water in sight - will of iron !

Achieved my mini-goal here of 4 NFDs with absolutely no snacking betwen meals - 3 days easy, yesterday hard as had mega carb cravings in the morning. Didn't snack, but ate too much at lunch (not chocolate and crisps though) and felt overfull. Balanced self out with bike ride and very light meal pm. Nailed NFD today, 3 healthy meals, litres of water, plus lots of walking and gardening.

Am learning to be someone who doesn't graze/snack/nibble . Really looking forward to a FD tomorrow and, all being well, another B2B.

Hope everyone has had a good weekend

Hey all, sorry for disappearing - some fantastic svs and nsvs on the thread this week! Well done you guys.

Sundays are my measurements day and I had more inches off my core this week so yay. Failed fast on Saturday but my period had just reappeared with a bang and I was exhausted and starving/freezing. But I did the shred it with kettle bells dvd again and it's getting better.

Considering I had two interviews last week (1 first and 1 2nd, i should find out tomorrow) and was pre period it wasn't half bad! Fast day tomorrow - bring on the soup!

Hi all, I've spent a lot of time lurking on these threads, feel in need of a bit of extra support if you've got room for a long-term lurker to turn poster?

I started 5:2 around 18 months ago, this time last year I was 10.7 stone (my happy weight), I've sort of kept 5:2 up, but not been strict on FD and been way too indulgent on NFD. Hadn't weighed for ages and then realised it was about time I did, 11.7 at the start of the holidays. I didn't want to worry about it while me and the kids had time off, but attempted to eat sensibly, with no FDs, during the holidays, end result 11.8.

Kids back to school and FD tomorrow, hoping I can get back on track. I was reading about the no longer eating like a teenager earlier on in the thread and thinking this was something I needed to focus on. When I was younger I could exist on crisps (and beer) and remain a sensible weight and I've fallen into the trap of expecting 2 sensible days to make up for 5 days of being ridiculous, which it can't. So FD tomorrow and then sensible no snacking NFD Tues, Wed, FD Thurs, back to sensible NFD Fri, Sat, Sun. Sounds so easy when typing it, compared to actually doing it...

Took the day off today - still 16:8 but didn't count calories at all and had mimosas and pancakes for brunch, beer and pizza for dinner - am STUFFED!

B&W yay for the vegan cafe, have to admit to being so spoilt here, so many great places you can take non vegans to as well and it's so nice knowing you can order anything on the menu - and so many places that cater for omnivores have a several vegan options, sometimes it's ok living in the city of 21st century hipsters

MrD good luck with the walk - in awe. I asked because I have a friend doing a 28mile charity walk across the isle of Mann next weekend and wondered if you were doing the same

Moved my body for the first time in weeks today and biked 12miles too - to brunch and back so slightly wobbly on the way home!

Planning FD for two out of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday this week as DH is away and I'm in the theatre all hours getting my show up so have to take in my food anyway

Morning everyone, I love Mondays and getting back into a routine, although under tdee yesterday I always feel slightly on the verge of loosing control as too much snacking / being out and about etc... another issue to work on!
Going to try really hard on nfd's this week not to snack but eat 3 or 4 healthy meals, wish me luck!!

Good luck to any mon fasters

FD here today too!