5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thank you for all the support...sending the supportive vibes onto others that need them too!!

Some great NSV coming in the last few days, well done!!

All very sensible BCF, thank you for taking the time to respond....I'm hoping it was just a blip fx. I do a lot of exercise so I tend to be heavier because I'm fairly muscly but I do want to tone up further & smash into the 9s!!!

Successful FD here, got an hours hill run in plus an hours yoga plus I had fishcake and salad for tea.

I'm going to see how I feel when I wake up but I'm hoping to go for b2b fast tomorrow and then hopefully the scales will tell a good story on Saturday.

I'm off to NYC in 5 weeks and I want to be down to 9st10 ideally so that's my short term motivation.

Let's keep ourselves on track

Been away for a while. Have been on holiday for the past two weeks and wasn't really sticking to the plan that well for the week before. Have put a few lbs back on but not as much as I expected!

So back to 5:2 today and have had a relatively easy fast day. Well done to all those who have achieved their SV and good luck to Friday fasters for tomorrow!

Cheeky You are still quite new to fasting, so don't worry, some people take several weeks to get down to 500 cals.
Also, most women feel bloated at totm, because of retained water. Just stay calm, don't gorge on pizza again and the water weight will be released the 1st FD after totm.

Today's FD didn't go to plan, but just stop eating now and it's a mini-FD (sub-1000) so it's a deficit.
You had another mini-FD yesterday - btw, probably why you couldn't manage an FD today: newbies should have an NFD before trying another FD.
++ So, move on, plan your NFD tomorrow to come within TDEE.

Getting used to FDs:

• Plan and calorie count in advance everything you are going to have
• Stick to the plan, don't deviate on impulse
• If it goes wrong, do your best and make the next day an NFD within TDEE
• You may want to ease in gradually with say 900 FDs, then down to 800 after a week or so etc until you manage 500. BUT you need to be careful on NFDs because you have a low TDEE, so can't afford to go over.

NFDs:

• This is where your main problem lies - e.g. Tuesday's 2500 cals of pizza & chicken wrap was 1000 calorie surplus, which eats back nearly all the deficit from 2 mini-FDs.
• Plan your NFDs in advance, 3-4 meals, no snacks . Mfp, to monitor cals over the week.
• Eat proper meals, not junk food. You need protein, veg & starchy carb. . If you can't cook, many ready meals are ok and you can see the calorie count.
• Cut out takeaways & fast food restaurants - too many calorie bombs. . For now, I recommend you cut out pizza, because it seems a trigger for you. A slice and a salad would be fine, but pizza seems to bring you 2500 cal days

Cheeky I recommend a Saturday or Sunday FD - I find it keeps my weekends moderate. While your FDs are minis, you need a 3rd day to lose properly.

Welcome back, Purple, Hiccup
It's good to break from fasting on holiday, but you need to mark in your calendar that you will resume 5:2 the day after your return, so the few holiday lb don't increase further with non-holiday lb.

Hiccup I recommend you plan your FD meals for the day in advance.
If the plan doesn't work, note the reason why.
Maybe you need to ease into fasting, allowing some extra calories at first ? You could always start with 3 mini-FDs.
Is your food low GI ? Is FD fruit or cereal starting hunger cravings ? Boredom ?

What prevents weight loss for most folk, even with successful FDs, is eating / drinking too much on NFDs.
I recommend you mfp for a week, to check you average within TDEE.
Also, see if too much junk or booze has crept in, which will hinder weight loss.

totally agree regarding the booze - to help myself out I'm cutting it out apart from one day a week until mid may

Had a mini FD today at about 1150 cals. Which is ok. I've not had any sugary treats for a week now! Very intrigued what the scales have to say tomorrow...

Good night everyone! If the only this child would sleep...

morning all

SV here, down 4lb so thats a total of 19lbs since I started 15th Feb, 5:2 is awesome! Good luck today carrot and anyone else weighing.

And good luck to any one fasting today, i'm on a mini FD ...
off to jump on the scales again for the 6th time to bask in a 4lb drop

Fabulous SV doineed, congrats!

Congrats on your SV, need That's great progress since mid-Feb. Enjoy !

Morning all.

Well I braved the scales this morning and was surprised to find I have only put 2lbs on. Haven't done 5:2 for three weeks (although haven't been eating breakfast) and haven't exactly been eating or drinking "mindfully".

So straight back on the horse- FD yesterday and 16:8 for the next few days and hopefully will start going in the right direction again.

Good luck to all the Friday fasters!

Well done need good loss.
Minimal increase purplethat's a good effort.
Staying out of kitchen this morning to enforce a 16:8. Not s FD but want to keep Cal's down for nice curry (as opposed to a shite one) tonight. & a glass (3) of wine, two weeks since last one.
Hope it's a good one.x

fab SV doi well done!

Friday FD here, am up in head office and have bought my bottle of water with me

Good luck to anyone else weighing or fasting today!

That's amazing doineed! Well done

Thanks bcf for all the advice. The weird thing is I fast for Ramadan every year (not eating drinking in daylight hours) so I'm very familiar with it. This week though, it's all DH's fault and a last minute dinner invite etc. I can always find something to blame lol! What I have noticed though, is that I suffer from candida overgrowth and it's totally flared up. It must be to do with the die off effect. It happens in Ramadan but that's b2b fasting for a month and I didn't think 5:2 would cause it. It's added to the exhaustion

FD today - felt much better waking up this morning. Drinking plenty of water today and about to have my ultrameal shake.

So far so good with my b2b fast. Nothing passed my lips except 2 cups of tea and lots of water. Got a 4 mile speed run in and now looking forward to my tea of chicken and salad.

Hope all other Friday fasters are doing well

good luck fasters! I think I'm FDing today - was going to do it tomorrow but now have various plans tomorrow which means being out and about so less easy to plan 500cal day, whereas DH didn't have his dinner last night which is a very helpful 300cal and I have a soup in the fridge that will bring my total up to exactly 500 today so think I'll swap it around - then this week will be 4:3 which is fine by me!

need you should absolutely be basking in the weightloss, well done you - also it's really inspiring and motivating to hear your total loss from February, it's so easy to get caught up in losses or gains just week to week. I wasn't going to weigh in for a month but am tempted to do it on Sunday which will have been 2 weeks....

BCF - yes, I really do feel happier when I have a mealplan. I felt so miserable about the weight increase that I just wanted to get back on the wagon asap.
Have been out all day at a funeral and all I've had is 3 coffees and half a piece of lemon cake...not the best thing to eat but I did resist the rest of the buffet.
Feeling pretty hungry now and still have to cook something for Ds.
I'm going to attempt a mini FD tomorrow and see how I go.
Tired, hungry and a little grumpy now so am going to sort Ds' dinner out and take myself off to bed

Evening all

FD complete on 508 here.... struggling a bit mentally as REALLY want a friday night takeaway.... BUT I shall resist! If it gets excruciating I'll make an options hot choc keeping me under 550 still.

The rest of the day has been fine, and feeling good for getting back to it again. I do enjoy a FD generally!

Got 17 miles of training walk to do tomorrow - am crapping it a bit to be honest, but I know I'll be fine logically - just got to get my head in the right place before ... oh and plan a route!!

Well done on your b2b, bugsy

Hang on just a little longer, MrD Drink water and clean your teeth right after the Options.
I'm sure your walk tomorrow will be another success; you are so fit now. Remember to take water, a loose sweatshirt and a pkt of tissues with you.

Hiccup Today was an FD - understandably v little nutrients due to funeral - so I suggest you just make tomorrow a healthy NFD, within TDEE.
Don't overdo fasting on your return. Aim for a sustainable longterm WOL.
I recommend you get into a routine of healthier FDs and sensible mindful NFDs.

Cheeky Ramadan is great practice for 5:2 or 16:8
A friend at work, who fasts every Ramadan, lost a shedload of weight very quickly and looks amazing. He is so proud He said it was very easy fasting, because he could drink loads of water.

Candida may well explain your own problems.
You need to absolutely starve it of added sugar and if possible go low carb for a while, with beans, lentils, peas instead of starches like bread, rice etc
Ditch the pizza !

Enjoy your extra-nice curry tonight, Annie

Thanks BCF. I'm hoping to stick to it and get back to my pre wedding weight! Under 9 stone and I'll be happy.

Thanks everyone 😀 and yes kiki I will revel in the loss, I had decided not to weigh every week as any gain (even if I knew logically could be due to a number of things like totm) would easily derail me, so that is first weigh in since easter, but 19lbs overall is fab and I'm really pleased with it. Good luck if you do weigh in 😁

Mini FD gone out of the window, was at funeral too and then had to make cake for fil so ended up having normal nfd as no time to plan today.

Wow 17 miles Mrd that is amazing... I need to try and do a bit more exercise, next on my list once I've truly cracked nfd's and no snacking.
Good luck any weekend fasters 😀

Evening - I'm new to mums net, joined ages ago but haven't really posted.
I did 5:2 last year and lost 10lbs getting to a weight I was really happy with. Then went on holiday, failed to get back into it afterwards and have piled it all back on!

So first fd today - hadn't intended it to be but was running late for work and was so busy that it got to 2pm and I hadn't eaten! Decided to make the most of it and popped to the Tesco express next to my office to pick up some low calorie snacks - had 2 babybel, pot of crudités and dip and fruit. Then omelette and salad for dinner. I have enough calories to have an options hot choc shortly.

I'll plan better for next week but I'm proud of myself for resisting the crisps and biscuits at work (the main cause of the weight gain!) and the jam doughnut that DD had saved for me when I got home.

Hi folks

Just had my first real fast in the last 2 weeks - family visiting and Easter chocs just got in the way. It's not really possible to sit and watch everyone else gorging on chocolate and not join in. It should be, but, what the hell - I'm supposed to be maintaining, after all!

I thought, if I'm going to fast, I should do it properly. So I had a 25hr LOF followed by veg curry and brown rice totalling about 350 cals, tops.

I never measure my veg stews any more, after doing very many of these, I know that, once you've got 6 or 7 veggies simmering away, plus a tin of tomatoes with a bit of flavouring, each serving spoon is approx 30 cals. So, 50g of rice - 175cals - 4 s/spoons veg curry, comes in at about 300. Normally, I'd indulge myself a bit and go up to, or even over, my 600cals, but today I simply had an extra spoonful of curry and left it at that. Now I'm well stuffed. And if I did want something later on, another spoonful isn't going to break any bank!

The 2:5 cutting out sugar is making it easier to stay in the zone tonight. I've been doing this for about 5 weeks, now, with a few lapses, and I'm really feeling a difference. It's hard to describe, but I feel - 'cleaner'?

(Not ATM, obviously, but 5 days of cutting out sugar definitely gives me a good feeling!)

Another thing that helps - if I'm feeling I should have some chocolate, or whatever, I know I wouldn't be doing my teeth any favours, and when you get to my age, you want to keep whatever teeth you have remaining!

I've just remembered we have a Humanist meeting in a local pub tomorrow lunchtime - and this pub doesn't do vegan food (didn't do last time we met, anyway)! So I may well be doing a b2b tomorrow.

Hello, Kiki, or should I say, ATB!

Nice to hear from you again!

I was racking my brains trying to remember what ATB stood for - then you posted this:

I used to do long bikes rides and would go on training rides of 65-85 miles in a day

and it suddenly clicked!

You'll be back in your favourite shorts in no time, I guarantee it!

Good luck dropzone 😁

Today's weigh in showed 4lb loss, woop woop! Right, need to attempt a stealth sleeping baby transfer to the crib now...