5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

It's my first FD today I have to shift this weight and get healthier and it's been really inspiring to read the thread.

I have my first FD menu planned out

Breakfast:
Porridge made w water and tsp of marmite - 110 cals

Lunch:
Amy's Kitchen vegetable and barley soup - 140 cals

Dinner:
M&S courgetti and bolognese - 228 cals

Total 478 cals

I know that's two ready meal type things but I'm rushing around a lot and worry that if I start cooking I'll miss calorie count or start snacking or change my mind and cook something else! Perhaps I'll be more adventurous in future. Here goes....

I'm back on the FD wagon again today. I did a pre-week last week (tried out a few of the low calorie lunch and dinner ideas, stopped the pastries at coffee time) so I think I'm all set to go.

Chicken noodle soup for lunch, and a big bowl of tomato and lentil soup/stew for dinner.

Which might leave me a bit of leeway for a couple of rice cakes with my cup of tea at 9pm

Hi. Doing my first FD. V basic question but MFP doesn't seem to be working and I keep finding different answers online - how many cals are in a cup of tea with skimmed milk please? And how about if I add one sugar?

Oh my word so many Monday fasters!! WE CAN DO IT!!!!!

choc on FDs I measure out 100 ml of milk in the morning to have with my coffee and then just take all the days drinks from that. I keep it in the fridge in a breast milk pot, gave DH a shock when he saw me pouring it in to my coffee .

Hi vvv

Hi. Fell off the thread recently.
I managed my last fd (Thursday) and i have been exercising (mainly running)
But OMG did I fuck up my nfds,? yes, by drinking. And as everyone knows that means calories from the wine itself and extra from the late night snacking it induces. Grrr.
Fd today and I started with black coffee and a short run. Lovely.
Then five minutes ago I was sooooo close to packing it in and eating some muesli.
I think I've climbed that hump and back on it now. Just for one day, I can eat tomorrow.
So, fd today, fd on thursday (just soup for supper on each day becasue I cannot bear to arse about with food when I'm fasting) and no alcohol, puddings or snacks until Friday night's gin and slimline.
Does that sound ok? Im so fed up with being fat but find it toooo hard being "good" all the time

That's a good idea Persis - so according to the bottle there's about 35 cals in 100ml of skimmed milk. So there's got to be what, about 5 cals in the amount you'd put in tea?

Felicity - I'm fed up with being podgy too! Bit worried about how I'm going to survive the FDs though. I can't do the big gaps between eating that some people seem to prefer doing on FDS so I'm going for the little and often approach - porridge with water and blueberries this morn, just had a banana, will have one scrambled egg with m'rooms at lunch, a snack mid afternoon then beans on 1 slice of wholemeal for din and the odd cuppa. Suspect I might creep over 500 cals a bit but I can't bear to be starving!!

Lots of people joining! I'm just going to have ultrameal shakes today. Need to give the body a rest!

Morning, FD #1 here good luck Monday fasters.
Good luck new joiners.

Mrd - all done on your walk amazing nsv!!!
Well done on everyone else sv & nsv there were lots I missed over the weekend.
Not v good on the exercise front at minute, have bruised my coccyx so have to keep it light. It hurts to sit it hurts to stand - not happy bunny.

Good luck to all Monday fasters especially to newbies

Good luck on your 1st FD, TopHat You've planned carefully.
That savoury porridge should keep you satisfied much longer than a sweet breakfast.
If you find you are very hungry, then next time you could increase protein a bit. If you are vegan, b&W is a very successfull longterm vegan 5:2er, so he has great suggestions about filling FD meals.

Welcome, StillSeeking I'm glad you've delurked

Did you weigh and measure your waist this morning, so you have a baseline ?
Sensible NFDs and no snacking are the key to gettng leaner at a decent pace.

Review after 2 weeks and check your inches & weight loss:
Some folk find that fasting and healthier choices means they automatically eat the appropriate amount for their body on NFDs, so they make good progress.
Others have become used to eating too much, so even with healthy food, they don't get the results they wanted.

Maintenance
Once you reach maintenance , that is when regular weighing - weekly or even daily - is VERY important. It is obv much easier to tackle 3-4 extra lb rather than letting it mount up and become a real job to get rid.
In contrast, during weight loss , many folk are very successful just weighing every 2-4 weeks; others like daily scales.

Congrats on your inches NSV, Panda and fingers crossed that those interviews produce some good offers.

Felicity That sounds a good plan.
Just chant to yourself on FDs: "I can have it tomorrow"

However, do try to develop sensible drinking & eating habits longterm, or you may struggle towards goal and then just quickly regain after all your hard work
Basically, what you ideally wish to eat and drink isn't possible for the age & height you are.

Many folk have the problem that they eat and drink like a teenager / their tall friend / their male OH

Hi chocwoc
It's ok to split the 500 into small meals and also to ease your way in with some extra cals.
However, do mfp at least on FDs, because all these little meals can add up; you can find you are quite a few hundred over, hence not losing properly - especially if your NFDs are above TDEE too.

Weight loss on any WOE is usually about achieving a weekly calorie deficit in some way. On 5:2 that is via the FDs and then maintaining the FD deficit by averaging around TDEE on the NFDs

Also, your menu looks high GI, which keeps your insulin raised and increases hunger. If your menu keeps you satisfied, fine. If not, then next FD to stay full, base your meals on protein & non-starchy veg. Better to move that high-sugar banana to an NFD and have more protein instead.

lots of newbies :) good luck to everyone starting and fasting today...
Just rechecking whether my TDEE has changed since loosing weight (it hasn't??) and have an NSV to report, I am now BMI 29.9, so just creeped out of the obese category - yippeeeeeee

Hello everyone.

I was a poster on one of these threads last year and lost s good amount of weight but have subsequently had a terrible stressful time in my life and a bereavement and have put on weight like never before, literally expanding week by week and I now I have 3 stone to lose.

I have planned to restart 5:2 many times but have failed everytime so I am hoping posting here will help with my motivation.

Today is my first fast day but it was rather an impromptu decision so not organised for it. Plan is to stop at M&s on the way home and get a fuller for longer meal.

Hope to be a pretty permanent poster on these boards for the next 6 months or so.

chocwok yes it's different for everyone. So finding what works for you is key imo.
what you ideally wish to eat and drink isn't possible for the age and height you are I know Bigchoc I know

Just had a delicious mug of bovril.

Hello lucked happy fast day.
Sorry for your loss.

lucked I'm so sorry. Lovely to meet you and have you here!

Pom poms for need whoop whoop!!

choc I was a real grazer before I started this and I thought I would never manage it....and the first week of no snacking was miserable, I was hungry all the time. But posting here helped and now in general I don't feel hungry at all until lunch time, and then am quickly filled up by something light, even on NFDs. See what works for you but what helped me was acknowledging that I would be hungry and that nothing bad would happen to me because of it!!

Am back from holidays and work away and fully committed. Still got 1 stone to lose. 1.5 would be a bonus, anything more sheer fantasy.

Have decided to go with my 4:3 plan for a while although am not precious if the 3 goes back to a 2.

Todays fast so far, itsu hoisin duck sushi 162 cals. Dinner will be waitrose fish pie 374. Slightly over (but what is 36 calories between friends). A little prepackaged but hey.

Also i have rediscovered the polo mint! Surprisingly effective at preventing snacking. Something if an irony that it is itself a snack - but 7 cals (less if sugar free) is most probably better than the alternative.

Hi everyone. Its my first day of trying 5:2 after years of yo yoing and stuffing myself silly ive decided it time for me to sort myself out. Im doing my first FD tmrw so sticking to TDEE today.
My starting stats are:
H= 5'4
W= 12st 7lb
Dress Size = 16 (I havent bought clothes for so long as going to the shops makes me cry)
Mood= Miserable!!
Good luck to all those starting today I hope we are all here in 6 months feeling fabulous!!!

Hi, can I join? I did 5:2 with some success earlier this year, but have put on most of the half stone I lost in the last couple of months! I'm a bit hopeless, but now committed. It's a fast day today, so I had porridge this morning, then nothing until tea later - that will be sea bas fillets and assorted green veg steamed and some left over ratatouille from the weekend.

I found previously that the first fast day was fine, but the 2nd one in the week was really really difficult. Anyone got any tips for this?

Hurrah and solidarity to all the Monday fasters! I can heartily recommend the marmite porridge which kept me full for ages. A bit worried about salt intake though as just had soup for lunch which tasted v salty.

I'm an inch taller and half a stone heavier than you mrs I feel miserable in changing rooms too. Feeling determined today though

Thanks bigchoc I'm figuring out some higher protein options (boiled egg and oatcake anyone??) as well as non-soup for when I'm out and about. The itsu duck sushi sounds good Bringon

I got the job!!! delighted, at least that means a bit less stress for the next month (until I start lol)

Well done panda!!

Last week was a mare and just couldn't complete a FD. Tried Mon, Tues and Thurs but felt so rubbish by teatime that I had a big tea. Certainly ate less than TDEE those days but too much for mini FDs. Today is going soooo much better that I can easily complete my FD. Hope tomorrow brings the same!

congratulations Panda

wow so many joiners on a Monday - good luck to everyone fasting, also to those returning 5:2ers, I'm one of you and have been back on the wagon 2 weeks and it feels so good to finally have the motivation back

Congrats on the job panda!

for everyone worried about buying ready meals, don't be - it's a really easy way of easing yourself in as you get used to MFP and working out how many calories are in certain foods - planning is def key!

I ended up toting up yesterday's calories in the end just to see and to remind myself why I having a day with pizza and pancakes and beer and wine and mimosas should be a very rare occurence - but I still came just 5 calories over TDEE, and when I thought about it I realised I didn't finish my pizza, only had half my beer because I was feeling full and stopped at 1.5glasses of wine because I was satisfied with that amount so I'm counting that as a NSV in relearning moderation and listening to my body

Back to healthy day today - some friends and I are checking out a new spot called Picnic and then going on a hike, then bean chilli with cauliflower rice for dinner and FD tomorrow

on this note - any bright ideas for some 300kcal lunches I can pull together tonight and take into the theatre this week? I can't reheat or microwave, and would prob be easier to make the same thing....also I'm vegan so there's that complication

I had a lovely bean and mint salad last week Delivered. I bought it in Lidl, and it came to about 150 calories for a very filling portion. I mixed it in with grated carrots and some baby spinach and it was delicious (I also added some leftover roast chicken, but that obviously wouldn't help you).

I'm pretty sure the ingredients were just a selection of beans, lemon juice, mint and a tiny bit of oil. Struck me as an idea thing to make ahead and just take from the fridge as required.

I've hit the 4pm I-want-to-eat-the-table phase. I know that from now until I get home for dinner is my danger period. Especially the gauntlet of shops and vending machines that is the train station.

I'll be ok once I make it home.