5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Nailed my B2B , very pleased as have a bit of a cold, not much sleep last night and family have arrived back with heaps of carbohydrates!! Am in the zone,no nibbling for me!

Congratulations on 'getting younger' stroke and normal BMI jengles

Well done all Wednesday fasters

Thanks a lot BCF, that's really interesting to read (another STEM PhD/science geek over here ). Was definitely feeling the low oestrogen hunger+impulsivity this afternoon! Successfully resisted though (except for a bit of raw cake mix ). Also gave the teaspoon of marmite and strong black coffee a go - at least one of these gave me the boost I needed and the rest of this FD felt much more manageable - hurrah! Will def have to bear in mind for future FDs.

Congrats stroke on your stellar health check stats

< waves to fellow science geek Jengles > Congrats on achieving a healthy BMi
Well done on your FD, Jengles, MrD, Kiki and all the other Wednesday fasters, especially on your b2b, clear - that's tough !

FDs with DCs / partner:

• Keep separate the dishes of protein, veg, starchy carbs, sauce
  e.g. for roast beef, cook several veg;
  you have lean meat and pile up different veg on your plate, add horseradish sauce. A tbsp gravy or skip it.
  They add potatoes, Yorkshires, gravy

• If there is a pud, you are too full after that yummy meal / you fancy chewing on a raw carrot, no dip or yoghurt etc / you just want a black espresso because pud would spoil the taste.

Oh God, I'm having a disaster at the moment. I'm a lb up on last week and it's bloody demotivated me. Should have been a FD today and all was going well until 5pm and then I fell off the wagon. Grrr so annoyed with myself. I'm going to B2B fast tomorrow and Friday. Got some lovely salad and butternut squash soup planned...wish me look. I WILL break the 10stone barrier!!!!!

That 1lb is just a blip, Bugsy A poo or a large wee. Water weight can vary a few lb over the week, easily hiding a 1lb loss or sts. It is the trend over weeks that counts.

Don't force yourself into a b2b unless you are used to them. Much better just to move and nail the next FD, then really make a difference and add a Saturday or Sunday FD.
Good luck with your next FD - you could do it tomorrow or Friday.

That's true bcf, thank you for the encouragement. I'm definitely going to fast tomorrow as I have a busy day so it will work well. Hopefully I can motivate myself to do Friday too as I have a manic weekend so it's going to be hard to fast then.

Also not sure about my random typo of 'look' before...I should know better!!

So annoyed by the scales though, I've managed to get so many decent runs in as well the past week that I thought I'd have cracked the 10stone barrier...I'm now up to 10st 2....grrrr.

Tomorrow is a new day and all that jazz!!!

But still, another grrr fir good measure!!!

It's uncanny how you can hover on the cusp of a new number on the scales.
You'll get there with your healthy eating.

8 hours behind you lot - FD complete and off to bed. According to MFP I'm coming in at 415kcal but my own calculations put it in a whole 100kcal above...but within a 6.5hours window

Morning, everyone
That was a good FD, Kiki however you calculate it.

Bugsy Running is good for your health & aerobic fitness, but if you aren't monitoring your intake it is quite natural to subconsciously eat more than the extra you burn:
A surprising number of women who run marathons actually put on weight because they don't monitor
e.g. I have a gym pal who trains 10hrs+ per week with her DP in the running group and they both do a few marathons every year at a decent pace - in the approx 15 years I've known them, she has gone from top of normal BMI to visibly obese, while he has become lean & ripped. They eat the same healthy balanced meals cooked from scratch, no junk, but his TDEE as a tall man is nearly double hers.

If you don't mfp your NFDs, I strongly recommend you do so for the next couple of weeks. This will enable you to check you have a decent calorie deficit - you need around 3,000 weekly to lose 1lb.
Also, don't eat back calories after a run, but just set an activity level in your TDEE.
btw, exercise only makes a dramatic difference if you keep your NFDs around sedentary TDEE.

If you find you do have a good deficit, then you know you just need patience and you'll crack that 10 stone.

Felt much better overnight this time having had a few more calories - think I clocked in at 900 and didn't eat again after 5:30 until 7am today. Which is a miracle in itself as I've always used breastfeeding as an excuse to eat later st night etc
And 2lbs off since Saturday! And feeling great, if hungry. But getting used to it and it's not so bad feeling a bit hungry. Totally trying to shift my mindset so it stays off...

Morning all!

Very happy here this morning, NSV and SV to report have achieved my week's goal of 7 days healthy eating, 2x B2Bs, 3x healthy delicious 3-mealer NFDs, NO snacking whatsoever, water water water and am 41/2 lb down from last Wednesday

< dancing round kitchen hitching up loose trousers>

Thanks BCF am in the zone! Next mini-goal, 4 x NFDs in same vein, delicious wholefood meals, nothing else, no snacking is my mantra. officially joined exercise thread too . it's getting the NFDs right that's key for me

bugsy 1lb blip - ignore and move on , 9 stone something is almost there!

Well done delivered!

Morning,
Just caught up - yesterday's info great, thanks BC.
Did b2b & trained 1lb up... Grrr.. But am 49 in just over a week, should be totm but they come when they like. So am holding bloat. Doing 14:10 today , mfp'd my meals & still under by a few 100.
All have a great one. X

Morning all

Fantastic SV / NSV Clear - well done you!!!

Bugsy - ignore and move on is what I'd say to that!

twolittle- fab news, getting used to fasting whilst bf must be tricky!

annie - ignore as a blip and see what next week brings!

wow excellent SV clear - I need to nail the NFDs too as FDs are fine

When you say 3x wholesome meals what kinds of things are you eating? I find on NFDs I'm fine without breakfast and happy with a salad for lunch and then after mfp-ing a dinner usually of protein and veg, I have loads of calories leftover so i tend to have a snack or two in the afternoon and maybe after dinner - ideally I need to stop snacking but struggling (although mostly still under TDEE iyswim)
Thanks

I'm having a week off 5:2 during school holiday but I can proudly report that I just sat down with a cup of tea and a bag of crisps and have put the crisps back in the cupboard because I'm not actually hungry.

wonderful NSV Clear and really inspiring to read too - I've realised it's been 11days since I weighed in and started doing 16:8 - which I've managed every day since and 3 FD since, I think I've broken the barrier of starving hungry and now in a sort of stride, it does really help having a NSV aim to getting into a certain pair of shorts by my Birthday in Mid-May....but I totally agree that nailing NFD is a big deal

I think I'll carry on inputting MFP on NFD until my birthday then continue with 5:2 but relax on calorie counting (but keep 16:8 as much as humanly possible)

I agree on the blips bugsy and annie - I'm trying something new this time round and not weighing in more than once a month - I found a week going a lb up could really set me back mentally, so I'm holding off knowing there will be downwards change of some kind after 4 weeks (hope so anyway) - Will also do monthly measurements and photos

BCF yes that old adage about 80% food 20% exercise - I used to do long bikes rides and would go on training rides of 65-85 miles in a day with leaders who were still overweight despite the fact they did that every weekend and I would only join in once a month or so - because they definately overcompensated in calorie burn with food! (and usually very sugary food like pastries and those horrid protein bars)...the first year I did my 545mile charity bike ride I put on 4lbs because I ate my way through it - the second year I was more mindful and lost 4lbs

NFD today but pretty hungry - thankfully my 16hour window ends in 1.5hours!

Congrats on your SV, Clear, TiredMum
That's good progress in getting NFDs under control, clear You need to start looking for smaller trousers again.

Well done on your crisps NSV, fusspot You are learning only to eat only when hungry, instead out of habit.

need Sounds like your meals aren't big enough, if you are snacking because of hunger, not habit.
I suggest you increase your lunch & supper, to stop snacking. You could either increase portion size or just add the "snacks" to the meals.

Kiki That 80% rule is for gym rats or 100-mile bikers (or men)
For the average woman gym goer trying to lose weight, imo intake is over 90%.
The problem is that most exercisers, particularly women, can eat in 20 seconds the calories burned in 1 hour exercise,
e.g. Morrison's choc chip muffin has 486 cals, about what a 9.5 stone woman burns in 1hr spin class

Where exercise is very important

• Health - significantly reduces risk of T2, CVD, osteoporisis, dementia
• avoiding weight gain - either for kids, or for adults as they age
• maintaining after weight loss
• ditching flab and getting a tighter looking bod

Thanks everyone, sure I'll have many more blips along the way (and will tell you all about them on here!), but all good for now.

Well done on no crisps fusspot

Well done on 16:8 kiki - impressive!

do basically I mainly cook from scratch from a mix of things like veg (obviously!), pulses, beans, seeds, a few nuts, tofu, eggs, fish, prawns, chicken, occasional beef, mainly gluten free grains, some houmus,very small amounts of tahini and cashew nut butter, some oatcakes, oats, some fruit (less since starting 5:2), a little flax/cocnut/olive oil, occasional small amount goats cheese/parmesan.

This is the kind of food I like and feel well on. The diet that got me so overweight was all of the above, but way too big potions and endless grazing and nibbling between meals, alot more bread, cheese, butter, AND comfort eating sugary/fatty/salty stuff when stressed.

Right I need help. Since being back from wedding weekend I have NOT had a successful FD for one reason or another.

My TDEE is 1558.

Monday - within TDEE (1 meal of Kobeda kebab with naan/salad/sauces)
Tuesday - about 2500 calories (pizza and chicken wrap)
Wednesday - lots of water and approx 700-800 calories.
Thursday - so far I've had about 900 calories

I feel terrible. Bloated, fat, very tired and it's TOTM. Really enjoyed the FD my first two weeks - lost 3.5 lb and felt on top of the world, not because of the weight loss alone but more energy and the light feeling I had. but all back on now. I need to sort myself out. Firstly I need a good night sleep. Can someone slap me ?!!

Should I have a FD tomorrow?

oops that should read coconut not cocnut the mind boggles!

sorry xposted with you cheeky. Most important thing is don't beat yourself up, don't panic, don't despair, we all have blips and lapses. Drinklots of water, catch up on sleep and whether tomorrow is FD or NFd plan it in advance and stick with it. Good luck!

Cheeky - its OK, Marathon not a sprint. Plan your next fast day when your callmer. Your upset with yourself because the scale said x y or z. Sleep tonight, plan nice good food for tomorrow - then plan next FD on a clear head.x

Thanks clear and bcf I will make bigger meals on nfd's and see how I get on. I cook from scratch too but have been avoiding pulses and beans, I'll start adding some in.

Good FD here today, 503 cals and I cooked a cake and didn't lick the spoon! Got to ice it tomorrow with vanilla buttercream I could live on it so going to have to restrain myself somewhat!!!

cheeky others more knowledgeable will have better advice for you but try not to dwell on it, you can get back to it tomorrow.

Well done any fellow Thursday fasters, mini FD for me tomorrow saving calories for meal and drinks and a slice of that cake on Saturday 😁

Signing in!
I had great results on 5:2 last year. Took an extended holiday in July/August and have managed 1 (!) successful fast since
I have put back on half the weight I lost (most of it in the last month!).
I seriously need to get a grip but just keep failing.
Desperately trying to get some control back in my life but feel like I'm going around in circles.
Going to have a good read through these 5:2 threads to try and motivate myself.
Got a busy day tomorrow so am going to attempt a FD. Just need to think what we'll have for dinner.