5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

B2b done on just over 700. T'was tough later on with bangiing headache but done now.
Night all.

Just finishing up my 2nd FD of the week with a mug of licorice tea.
Feeling good food wise (around 540 cals I think) but very sore and aching from my double workout whammy on Sunday.
Just went to the track and did laps interspersed with planks and other fuck awful resistance exercises and it.was.hard.hard.work.
It even hurt to lift my arms to wash my hair when I got home!
Hoping this work out has helped to loosen everything up so won't be as sore tomorrow.

I have a health check thing at work tomorrow where they take cholesterol/blood sugar/BP/body fat composition etc and some machine that tells you your metabolic age. I'm aiming for somewhere in my 20's so wish me luck!!

Starting second fast day ever today. Feeling determined! Have skipped breakfast as going to try and keep most calories for the latter end of the day so I don't have a rough night again (still doing night feeds) so thinking I'll have breakfast 11ish, lunch 3ish and most calories on dinner at 7ish, does that sound ok big choc or should I stick yo normal mealtimes?

Morning all

On FD1 of my 2nd ever B2B yesterday went v well and have a busy day ahead with food all planned so feel ready for FD2 .

Well done annie for completing B2B even with headache!

Well done do!

carrot shakiness in morning was it high GI food the night before perhaps?

Good work stroke! And good luck at the health check - interesting to see how 5:2 effects all those measures

Sorry about DD's ankle MrD what a bummer.

MrD FDs with DC around seem OK for me so far (though not done it often as yet - will have to in summer hols though like you) as long as I plan well what I'm going to be eating and plan the day in term's of roughly what's going to be going on. And I'll eat soup at lunch (sociable) and maybe a bit of soup earlier if I need 'my wits about me', as it were.

In the evening family get the carbs and maybe a few other bits and pieces to 'jazz up' their meal along with the veg and protein more or less as I am having. One issue for me is I don't want it to look like I'm not eating so bowl of soup at lunch looks 'normal' and my plate in the evening is so piled high with veg it looks like I'm eating loads. Think your children are younger which maybe makes it more full on? Early teens here so doing own thing more than used to.

tiredmum not an expert here but I'd say 3 meals should help hunger not build too much. Be guided by you body, if you're ravenous befo e11 have breakfast a bit earlier maybe. Just make sure you have highly nutritious food at breakfast after that long gap and for the other meals too - no empty calories (sugar, junk etc). Good luck!

Cheers clearskies and good luck with the b2b. That's what I'm thinking if I spread it out then the breastfeeding munchies shouldn't hit! Or feeling horrendous and not sleeping at 2am. Fingers crossed

thanks all,

BC - to be honest its a bit of both, we always relax the rules in general in the holidays, which leads to more treaty type meals out and about, but also if I'm off and with them we like to eat together

clear - like your idea of eating soup with them at lunchtime, that could definitely work. I think I'll be fine as long as I get into the swing of it properly again now and plan ahead a bit more in the holidays!!

Well done to all the fasters! I'm currently necking a pint of water and really looking forward to resetting my system again - weigh in showed 4lb up from my time away so am more than ready to get it gone again! I'm confident its retained water from all the carbs etc so will be gone pretty quickly

Thanks for the replies.

Carrot A sleepless night can spike cortisol / insulin levels and make you feel weak / hungry. Especially when you are just returning to fasting.

Concentrate on low GI meals, based on protein and masses of veg.

Have a teasp Marmite (neat from the jar, like medicine, 10 cals) twice per FD and drink lots of water. This will replenish lost salt & minerals, which can help FD weakness.
Hot black coffee ir espresso (preferably no sugar) is also good, both for a caffeine boost and because it can help sta iliae insulin levels.

The timing sounds fine, tiredmum Say 250 cals each for breakfast & lunch, then 500 cals for supper.
Since you have to be awake in the night for BFing, do have your 1000 cals for FDs. You can always reduce gradually to 700 once you are used ti fasting and feel ready.

Come join us on the main 5:2 / IF Thread
We're very friendly and there's lots of tips & advice.
The OP there has a HOW TO START section which has all you need to know, plus calculators, 3D body visualisers and links to recipes etc

Oops, wrong thread < old gimmer >

Feeling weak was after a FD. I think it went away after breakfast though. Thanks for the tips bigchoc.

I'm finding FDs on 1000 cals quite easy to do - I don't even feel like I'm fasting with 3 meals. It's the utter exhaustion before the day even started that makes it feel insurmountable.

Yesterday I caved in and had a "treat" - it was toast with peanut butter and a banana. As someone said up thread though, there could have been worse things I could have eaten!

How old are your DCs tiredmum?

They're 4, 2.5 and 4mths. Are you ebf too? How old are yours? 1000 cals seems too easy in a way doesn't it!

Afternoon all Checking in midway through FD2. And have some SV and NSV to report - have dropped 9 lb in about 5 weeks and just into 'normal' BMI now! And also dug out some 'too right' clothes from the loft and some of them fit me now, hurrah! Now weigh less than before pg2, but need to drop about another stone to get to pre-pg1 weight. It feels very achievable though.

BCF may I ask a question about fast days and menstrual cycle?! I've been finding FD pretty good and almost enjoyable(!) but
my period arrived this morning and I am finding today's FD hard work. Very lethargic and keep eyeing up the Easter egg in the treats cupboard. Is this pretty typical? Any tips to make the day easier? Many thanks in advance (periods very irregular due to implant, so this is first one since starting 5:2)

Too tight, not too right

Oh god you have your hands full! I have 2.4yo and 5 week old. Yes, it does seem like we're cheating somehow

These are great S and NSVs jengles!

Congrats on your victories jengles

I totally agree with PP about wanting it to not look like you're not eating with DC around - I tend to make a bean chili or soup that can go on top of rice or pasta for them and spinach for me

FD today, feeling smug as I planned all good down to the last calorie yesterday which should make it easier to stick to today

hi all

NFD today so far so good, trying to save 600 cals today and 600 cals Friday NFD as i have my FIL 70th birthday meal and drinks on the weekend to negotiate.

Wow, i'm struggling with just one 5yo DS, don't know how i'd cope with more, and that they were younger as well, and breastfeeding - hats off to you guys

Making a Spanish chicken thing with olives and spinach for tea, boy will have mash or rice with his and i'll have a big portion of greens so that with a couple of diet cokes if i feel the urge to get me through this evening and the season finale of the walking dead to catch up on i'm on course to 'bank' 606 cals according to MFP

FD tomorrow, good luck any fellow thursday fasters

Wow, fasting whilst breastfeeding, that's a mean feat, especially if still nursing through the night. I found lack of sleep made me far hungrier and likely to eat crap than if I had a decent night. Hats off to those of you nursing and fasting.

I had my health check and I'm pleased to say that I have transformed from a 36 year old into a 22 year old metabolically ! On the even better (but massively boring) side, my cholesterol levels were beyond excellent which is something I need to keep an eye on with a history of genetic heart disease, hypertension and high cholesterol in my family.

It's always amusing when a health professional asks you what your diet is like and you tell them that you fast 3 days a week. They're always a little stumped, especially if they come from the "eat little and often" school complete with the bread/pasta/rice heavy food triangle of doom! (am not UK based so don't know what it's like over there these days).

The only thing she managed was a comment about making sure when fasting that my blood sugars were stable, and then she checked my blood sugars and they were excellent. She ended with "I don't think you need to see the nutrition counselor..."

Wow well done stroke. I must admit I find that mentality hard to get out of as I've had that drilled into me from my teens now an old bag in my 40s eat pasta / rice / potatoes with every meal etc, it has been foremost for so long.

Congrats to the newly 22-yr-old FurryWall on your rejuvenation NSV
btw, US studies on Mormons who fast at least 1 day per month indicate that longterm regular fasting dmay help lower risk of CVD & T2: J Cardiology and American Diabetes Assoc

need Research has shown that those who have insulin resistance (typically apple shape) do much better on low carb + beans, lentils, peas.

Those whose insulin metabolism is ok can eat starchy carbs, but need to be realistic about portion size per meal (typically no larger than your fist for all starches together) - or the excess is stored as bodyfat.

Jengles totm:
totm FDs are tougher.
Lower estrogen increases both hunger and impulsivity; higher progesterone also increases hunger, so the worst phase for cravings is usually days 14-22.

For evolutionary reasons, the hormonal changes at totm often bring cravings for fatty, sugary food - to store reserves in case you got pregnant during ovulation.
However, we are not on the Paleolithic savannah and don't need to store extra fuel.

Just keep good habits:
lots of water, increase fibre, NO SNACKING,
avoid junk food because you are more likely to store fat at this time

Most women retain water at totm and feel bloated, but if you resist gorging, you'll lose that water weight the following week, plus probably another lb or so.

Good news: Fasting can reduce those symptoms caused by issues with insulin metabolism e.g PCOS, acne etc.

Hormonal Changes with the Years
This is how your hormones change, which helps explain the tendency to gain weight pre-meno and especially meno:

Evening all

FD complete at 524, with a 7.5hr eating window

Just settled down with my options hot choc and a pint of water for the evening

Felt good to be back to it, and didn't feel any hungrier for the carbs, so thats good.

Had a slice of roast chicken with raw carrot, celery and cucumber at lunch and a 2 egg cheese omelette with cucumber on the side for dinner, yummy!