5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done on your healthy b2b, Clear and on your belt NSV.
Well done to the other Friday fasters and exercisers.
I'm fasting tomorrow. Anyone joining me ?

Frumpet Many folk like miso soup on FDs, either as part of a meal, or as a tiny lunch, to save most calories for supper.
Any healthy low GI food is fine on an FD, so long as it fits into your 500-cal plan.
You are right: planning is key to easier FDs; also to NFDs, if you have trouble eating sensibly on "non-diet" days.

That's good work, maintaining at goal, Persis Just move onto low GI and you'll have additional tools for longterm maintenance.

Fortunately I love lentils. Started eating them loads as a penniless student and have never lost the habit of hurling handfuls in anything else I'm making . So I'm halfway there!

Good evening all

I'm back from a fantastic few days away!

Vib - amazing progress, well done you - you must be over the moon! Hope I can say something similar come September!

BigChoc - you missed a bit its 3st 6lb at present ignore the next paragraph

I relaxed the rules completely whilst away, the first day I kind of had a mini FD, simply by not eating until we arrived at the family we were visitng so had one big meal and a bottle of wine . Didn't eat terribly, but I know I didn't drink enough water, had too much booze and over TDEE at least one day so I'm expecting to show a few lb gain in the morning, but also expecting most of it to be bloat. I'm still off work until Wednesday with the DC so need to have a vague plan to fit in some FDs with the kids around to get back on track!

Thanks BCF and persis dancing here too as 1.5lb down since B2B. Very happy to be back on track.

B2B felt easy tbh felicity, just got very light headed/spacy/buzzy on day 2 before I ate lunch. Buzzy feeling nice - get loads done - lighheadedness not so good but passed after food. Will do it again, but will have to plan it round day 2 not involving driving! I think today's NFD is where I need to be really careful, especially as have a v active day ahead.

Have a good FD BCF

Great attitude MrD - you know you'll get back on track!

Congrats on your SV, Clear
You know you make progress when you stay mindful on NFDs and you are learning how to do this.
After that b2b, your body needs nourishing food this weekend and you'll have more energy.

On a long journey, you need short breaks MrD - That holiday week away makes this WOE sustainable longterm for you.
Any post-holiday blip will be temporary - mostly retained water from extra carbs, plus fat-burning may have paused after the alcohol
You are so near 50lb loss; just concentrate on that.

< scatters lentils around dancing Persis > BBC Good Food Guide has these tasty-looking Lentil Recipes

Hello!

I'm trying my luck to follow ADF. Hopefully, I will be successful in this routine.

Welcome, proudmum Post whenever you need support, or just a natter.

Hi proudmom, stick to the OP rules & this works.
Clear - b2b good effort & well done!!
Good luck bc your the master of fast!!!
Last night went by with no yay!! That means no snacks and a below tdee- and the same planned for tonight. Dh will come home & I'll have disappeared .
Have a good weekend all.x

Proud of yesterday - I had a work day with massive drama, a job interview and my OH getting a chinese. I still made it through!

I've taken my measurements today and I'm down an inch and a quarter on my waist, 3/4 inch on my hips, and same on the boobs - the rest has stayed the same, but not bad I feel!

I feel rotten today though - hungover without being hungover. But this is probably because my hormones are screwy (period now 1 month late, def not pregnant, just came off the pill and polycystic ovaries are having a hissy fit) and my OH has just left for a week on business and I'm solo.

At least I got the leftover prawn crackers and crispy seaweed to have with breakfast!

I still haven't been brave enough to head to the gym on a FD. Any hints/tips? I go in the evening after work so should I have my evening meal before I go? Worried about getting dizzy/passing out halfway through body pump or combat.

Good inches off panda I've been solo since Tuesday. Use any spare time as me time. I've done 4 gym sessions, ate no shite or drink any booze. 3 days left till mine comes back if your tired & your hormones are all over have a kip, stressed body isn't good for you.
onlyway I've done gym on FD but mornings which is OK. A session after a FD before breakfast is harder for me but fill up on black coffee before helps. Maybe a light lunch would help & lots of fluid.?

As I'm solo today I have taken myself to the excellent pub for a nice meal accompanied by glass of rose, and for the evening intend to boot up the sims. Not done that in ages!

< waves to disappearing Annie > Now you know how to handle weekends on your own - no snacks or booze, sensible portions of normal food - just add a single glass of wine & repeat when your OH is there.

Well done on your inches NSV, Panda
Hormonal issues can be hell; hopefully your system will eventually settle down now you are off the pill.

If you have a headache or general below-par feeling with ADF generally or on 5:2 FDs, then keep drinking water and twice per FD have a teasp of Marmite straight from the jar (or unsweetened soy sauce) to replenish salt & minerals.

onlyweigh Most folk who are used to fasting or training can manage fasted training ok, especially pump or martial arts.
However, don't mention fasted training to anyone at the gym - you may get nagged. Many PTs are amazingly ignorant of current exercise science.
In fact, it has been proven that fasting for a day or two boosts metabolism and that fasted resistance training retains muscle.

Fasted Training
If you haven't done this before:
. Keep the training session to maximum 1hr. Less is fine.
. Strength training, HIT, martial arts are usually easier (better able to use bodyfat for fuel) than medium intensity steady state cardio sessions like running, swimming or elliptical trainer.
If you do cardio, keep to 30 mins max until you get used to it.
. Drink some water before & after; keep a bottle with you.
. If it's morning, no need for any food before.
. If it's afternoon or evening, I suggest you split calories into 2 meals - lunch & supper, including plenty of protein & veg. You do NOT need any fruit, shake etc at the gym, before or after.
. What is useful: 10 mins before training, knock back a double espresso, no sugar or milk. It helps mobilise bodyfat for fuel.
. In the very unlikely event you feel unwell, of course stop immediately, don't struggle on.

I'm loving reading all of these sv (haha auto corrected to D&V) and nsv. Keeping me motivated! bcf are you some kind of super fasting motivator champion?! There is nothing you don't know! So helpful, thanks:)

I have had a fab week fast-wise (my chronic headaches have disappeared!) and haven't even felt that hungry. Stuck to below tdee every day until last thing: My big nemesis has been after dinner, clearing up. I normally make 4 portions as dh and I used to have leftovers for lunch when I was still working. But now, we eat our dinners (mine is moderate and within portion limt) and as I'm stacking the dishwasher and getting lunches ready for next day I then stuff my face with "picking". Ugh.

Question: I'm doing 16:8...but am doing it every day. Is that right?!

That's interesting bigchoc, as well as peeing (and peeing, and peeing) on my FD I've been both craving salt and having an incredibly salty taste in my mouth in the evenings. Good tip on the marmite - when I was at work this week I stuck a teaspoon of it in a mug of hot water and it wasn't half bad!

I will confess to not having done any additional exercise at all yet. I think I am ready to commit to doing Julian Michaels shred it with weights tomorrow. I've had it for ages and never done it, it looks tough but I know her workouts are great.

I was thinking of the miso soup on the FD , using it like the marmite ?

Glad I found this thread. I took the plunge and did my first ever fast day today. Aiming to do 5:2, am ebf a 4 mth old so aimed for 700 calories today which I managed. Have had to retreat to bed already as DH sat downstairs eating sweets and I'm starving :( have headache too, hadn't thought about that being lack of salts etc. Have drunk loads of water and survived the day basically. Really hard not to snack and I know I'll struggle with not eating once kids in bed hence the early night. Debated attempting a run tonight but figured I should let body get used to fasting first?

Ooh I love miso soup frumpet. Do it!

Welcome, tiredmum

A useful tactic is to drink a glass of water and then clean your teeth immediately after your last planned meal.
This provides a fresh taste and tends to discourage further eating.

Cutting out snacking / grazing / nibbling is an important habit to learn, for both FDs and NFDs:
It enables your body to burn more fat between meals and also reduces total daily intake.

If you feel like a run now, TiredMum just have 20-30 mins.
I always recommend pampering yourself on FDs, the most important component of which is an early night.

Yes, miso would work too, frumpet
I'm a science geek, so I researched 5:2 thoroughly before starting (I was interested in healthy aging and the most impressive peer-reviewed papers suggested Intermittent Fasting)

GardenGirl If you are doing 16:8 without FDs, then it is best to do so daily.
btw, most people don't lose weight on 16:8 unless they cut out either breakfast or supper, because weight loss usually requires a weekly calorie deficit.
However, others automatically eat less, just because of the short eating window.

After 2-3 weeks, I suggest you review your progress and tweak your WOE if necessary.

Horrendously I am really struggling to get back to sleep after night feeds :/ baby has been asleep since 2:30 and I'm wide awake and feel sick with hunger. No! Any tips? Will this get better on FDs?

At the top it mentions calculating your TDEE for your goal weight and eating that amount for some of the days to aid weight loss , but making sure you eat your current TDEE on at least one day ( Saturday !!!!!) , is that right ?

tiredmum I used to be ravenous in the middle of the night when breast feeding , would munch through biscuits like there was no tomorrow while DS was sound asleep on my lap ! Is there any way you could save a 100 calories for a midnight snack ? and take a bottle of water to bed to sip while feeding ?

I relented and ate a banana at 3am :) I think I might be ill too which is why I felt so rotten. Dd chose my first fast day to increase her night get ups, brill! Thanks for the tip x