5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning everyone

That's right, frumpet However, sustainability is key, not speed of loss. You don't want it to be too tough.
I suggest starting with just 2 NFDs at goal TDEE. You can optionally gradually increase this to 3 or 4 NFDs.

TiredMum You planned to do 700 FDs. However, since you are feeding during the night, that low figure does NOT look sustainable (it is the bare minimum for BFers)
I recommend the classic 1000 FDs for BFers, so e.g. you have 300 cals at breakfast and lunch, then 400 cal supper to keep you going theough the night. Or whatever daytime split you prefer.
Try to avoid eating during the night, because you burn more fat with at least 10 hours calorie-free between supper & breakfast.

Thanks bigchoc, I'll take that approach next time and see how it goes

Try to keep FDs low GI.
Fruit is not great on its own - it's just a sugary snack, which tends to spike insulin levels, then they drop and you feel very hungry again.
If you want an easy mini-meal, then better to have a small piece of hard cheese and a dozen or so unsalted almonds or walnuts. Or a chunk of chicken breast or a hard-boiled egg.

Sounds like you were within the 1000'cals for your FD, so well done

In a rush here but just to say to tiredmum if you are EBF you might need to ease into FDs much more gradually, with gradually reducing your calories? - see what bcf says but ebf a small baby round the clock plus disturbed sleep is very very demanding. Are all your calories nutritious ones iyswim, ie no sugar, junk, etc? That would help. And make NFDs as nutritious as possible, no junk etc. Make every calorie feed you really really well. And plenty of protein and sufficient good quality fats

Also is persis around? can't remember what you said about number of calories you needed on FDs while bf?

Another SV here today, had a very lovely active NFD and nailed it with my planned 3 meals of wholefoods, absolutely NO snacks and another 1 1/2 lb gone since yesterday . .

Having such a good phase just now that am going to do a mini FD today. Am in the zone!

Back later to catch up with others' news

If anyone starting is having a tough time in their ordinary life - e.g. BFing, sleep, family / job stress - then sometimes it is better not to fast for the first 2-3 weeks; instead just learn some good habits:

. Eat healthy meals within TDEE: protein, lots of veg & pulses, optionally some complex carbs, 1-2 portions fruit daily, unsalted nuts, cheese, yoghurt
. No snacks / grazing between meals
. Limit alcohol, sugary treats, junk food to sensible portions and not every day
. Drink lots of water

I generally eat healthily and don't tend to rely on junk for snacks or meals. But I do snack, eat junk at night and eat too big portions. They're the things I need to kick. I ate well yesterday, i had porridge made with water, blueberries and yogurt then homemade veggie soup and chicken breast with veg for tea. I do think part of the reason I feel Crap is that I've succumbed to our virus that's been taking out the kids. But as you say maybe I went too far with low calories? Problem is when I've lost weight through calorie counting before I've found that when ebf I can only really up my intake by 2/300 calories max to lose. Which is why I thought I better apply the same reasoning to a FD? This is my 3rd baby and therefore 3rd time dieting and that amount has applied each time. I'm totally new to this type of diet though so could be way off!

Intermittent fasting, FDs and NFDs are totally different to the daily diets you did before.
So, I recommend you start with the standard system for BFers

• 1000 cal FDs
• TDEE on NFDs This would achieves a weekly deficit which should lose weight safely at a decent rate. When you are exhausted and your body is also learning to fast, it is not the time to experiment and push yourself into a stricter regime than normal 5:2

After 2-3 weeks, we can review your weight loss, inches loss, how you feel generally. That is the time to assess gives if food needs tweaking up / down / whatever.

excuse typos

Hi everyone, just on my way home after a weekend away for a family wedding. Two days of feasting. Was really pleased with my 3.5lb weight loss so hoping I can sts this week when I weigh in on Friday morning. FD tomorrow and Thursday. Looking forward to FD's and drinking lots of water! Been reading the thread to keep me focused x

Bcf -QQ. In your post at 08:24 today, You mentioned having at least 2 NFD at goal TDEE. Does this mean that the other NFD's should be less than goal TDEE? Or do you mean you should aim for 2 NFD at goal TDEE and not be strict on the other NFD to ease yourself in?

I didn't fast today, though it should really have been a fast day since I'm doing every other day (ADF).

Bored of my own company now, glad to be going back to work tomorrow. And I have made a pot of onion soup for tomorrow's fast!

If I may admit to a bit of a downer though... I bought a bikini for my holiday tonight and looking at all the beautiful young models made me sad. I'd love to have a body like that, but even when I was a young teen I didn't! Or even in my 20s. I've just never ever had a nice, toned, slim body, even as a child. My stomach is my greatest nemesis and has been since I was 5 - my belly button is a horizontal slit, due to the far around it, not a taut vertical indent. And now I'm 31 with hunched shoulders and lines coming in around my eyes I'm sort of more and more coming up against the feeling of 'this is the best it's ever going to get'. It's crazy, when I think about all of those failures and promises and diets and shame, all that wasted effort. Weird thing is I can recognise it's all just a bunch of partriarchal bullshit that your primary value is ornamental if you are a woman, and yet I still feel the pressure.

Apologies for the philosophising - I suppose a lot of this goes on in my head when I'm dieting, so maybe it's best to let it out!

Had a fantastic FD today - heaps of black coffee, marmite toast, then played Gaelic football in the blazing heat, plenty of water followed by 2 miles on the track interspersed every 400m with minute planks and push ups. Got home and enjoyed a ham sandwich.

I love Sunday fast days, I find them far easier than week days and I always feel mentally strong starting the week knowing I've had a successful FD.

I am rejoining after a long hiatus - was once one of the regular originals (as ATB) the maintainers, then stopped doing 5:2 but still maintained.

Last 5 months I've steadily put on 10lbs above my easy to maintain weight, a full stone above my happy weight, and can't do up my favourite summer shorts.

Have just completed my second successful FD for first time in months and months and so riding the wave of motivation need some moral support - I'm also doing 16:8 every day and having one day a week to drink alcohol and steering clear of sugar.

It's my birthday in 6weeks, I want to be back in my green shorts and at 133lbs (easily maintainable weight) by then....

Welcome back Kiki and good luck
When you get to goal weight, I recommend you have a simple maintenance plan:
Weighing twice weekly and adding an FD whenever you are max 4lb above Happy Weight.

That's a great workout on your FD, FurryWall
It's really good you enjoy your FD system, so you can make it part of your longterm WOL.
I also find a weekend FD provides extra time for different types of exercise, plus pampering myself - say a sauna and a home facial - or just to fit in essential chores.
It is also a good tactic to prevent weekends becoming calorie fests, that affect your weight loss for the whole week.

Cheeky On standard 5:2 you average around TDEE over the 5 NFDs.

However, some folk optionally choose to speed up weight loss by regularly aiming below TDEE on some NFDs and keeping to TDEE on all others.

For those with higher BMI, "goal TDEE," which is TDEE at goal weight, is significantly lower than current TDEE. So they can aim for goal TDEE some NFDs, with current TDEE on the others.
It also trains them to get used to the lower TDEE they'll have at maintenance.

Ooh well done stroke.
Hi deliveredbykiki good shorts target to set.

pandarific . I hear you. The thing is (and i know you know this) the whole point of the advertising industry is to make us feel like shit and then "fix it" by buying crap.
I was actually was at my most fab looking in my 30s So its totally still up for grabs for you to feel happy with your body. Now I miss that me. Its hard with family commitments. i was able to be quite selfish about my food choices had plenty of time to exercise. Less sleep, preparing family meals/ snacks, comfort eating and hugely restricted exercise time make it a challenge.
However, obviously the dcs are adorable best things ever and i am now finding ways to fit my needs into the week.
Tbh i would find 4:3 a bit too much of a struggle. I wonder if your success would be helped more by the more manageable 5:2 ???

FD for me today. And thursday. Aiming for no alcohol mon-thurs, which also makes it more likely i'll get to the gym.
Weekend was a time of feasting, but not bingeing, and I drank less than i have been recently.

God I'm old.

Ok getting a bit carried away with the idea of losing weight , even though I haven't even started ! I do have an awful lot to lose though and I can really feel the extra strain it is putting on my body , so am in a hurry to lose at least two stone , the other 4 can come off more gradually When I say in a hurry , I mean over the next 3-4 months , although prefer to think of weeks so next 12 -16 weeks , psychologically weeks work better in my mind , I see weeks as bite size chunks as opposed to months !

Sorry to hear that, Panda I'm outraged so many women feel ashamed of their bodies.
My advice is to regard weight loss as something you do for your own health, to improve your ability to perform everyday tasks of walking, lifting or running for a bus.

This means weight loss must be a safe, sustainable longterm process, with a maintenance plan.
It sounds like you have dieted for years and been tough on your poor body.
I recommend you be more gentle about weight loss:

• Dump those godawful pills which block your body's natural processing of food. There is no information about e.g. effects on gut bacteria, so you could increase bloat, or cause future weight problems Even if you don't notice obvious side effects, it's additional abuse of your poor body. Stop punishing it.
• Switch from ADF (which sounds too stressful for you) to standard 5:2
• Learn to eat to TDEE on NFDs. It is the amount your body needs and will enable longterm maintenance. No more yoyoing
• Concentrate on healthier choices to nourish your body - less processed food, sugar, alcohol

I grew up when slim was normal, so I've never been bothered about weight.
However, there was great pressure to dress smartly, have perfect makeup, high heels, look glam & sophisticated.
I've just never accepted that superficial crap, or socialised with people who expect it of me.
(maybe it helps being a science geek - I'm valued for my brain)

My body, my choice.
I live in sports kit, jeans, Nike. I often don't wear makeup.
I am so much more than how I look.
Accept me as I am.
I am nearly 60 and I still like my body. It is strong, fit & - touch wood - healthy. That's all I want.

Relax, Frumpet With a lot to go, your first 2 stone should come off quickly, without pushing things.
It sounds like you'll have sensible NFDs - the key to losing at whatever weight.

Beautiful post BCF

Hey panda don't despair. yes the pressure on women to 'look' a certain way is CRAP but you've come to the right place to make as much change as you want. I also have a long long way to go, like you, but there's so much support and practical advice on here about healthy 5:2 eating and exercise we can do it if we stick at it - am actually starting to believe this as the weeks go by and I get the hang of this new WOE bit by bit. Plus there are so many inspiring reports from the people stages ahead of us who are nearing or at a healthy size and are fitter, more toned etc. Not to mention all the people mainitaining at a healthy weight.

.....and like felicity said 5:2 might be more sustainable than 4:3

Stick with it and post when you need to vent

This morning I am trying a trick borrowed and modified from lc dieting because I am hopeful that it will comtrol my hunger in this fd. I have stirred a teapoon of coconut oil into my black coffee. I plan on eating nothing until supper time when I will have soup. I had a large mug of cinnamon tea first thing and I have emergency chicken bovril and lots of herbal /fruit tea to see me through the day.
My challenges are that I am at home and so have both 5yo and 3yo dc to entertain referee and feed. This is where I learn to not comfort eat.
I have asked dh to make supper for them all.

Morning everyone!!!

tired I am BFing too. My baby was 9 months or so when I started so not feeding as much, so I tried 500 cal days and it was dreadful - I couldn't do it at all, felt tired and miserable all the time and ended up eating LOADS on NFDs. I upped my FDs to 700 cals and the weight fell off, I am at my target and have stayed there for 8 days (!!!), the FDs are easy and, crucially, so are the NFDs. I would really second what the others have said and suggest you start at 1000 cal FDs. The weight will come off and you will be able to sustain it long term. Also, at 4 months I lost a stone by just eating mindfully - I put on 3 stone after this baby and only needed to fast to shift the final one as the other 2 came off by not eating enormous portions, extra meals or loads of biscuits!!

panda I bet you are beautiful . Why not start with 5:2 and if you aren't losing like you want to go to 4:3? It's got to be sustainable and, what is great, is that compared to the zillions of diets I've tried you don't have to think about it all the time. Be kind to yourself, you are lovely and precious and you are worth looking after. Your belly button is not the thing that you should be judging yourself on!!!

FD here today.....who's with me?? I like a Monday FD!!!