5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Just calculated my TDEE whasit and it says over 2,000 calories , was thinking of eating /drinking more along the lines of 1200 on NFD , is that too extreme ?

Good luck persis pass on joining you today, just done 2 & a mini inbetween. nice bread is my thing,, not chocolate, i've got the shite white stuff this week so not to be tempted. Got a drawer full of Easter bunnies though.
Sv today got to 11-13. Haven't seen the 11 number sice coming back from my wedding 9 years ago.
Have a good Friday all.x

Dear Frumpy,
Welcome! Yes 2000 on non fast days would be right. That's the whole point of 5:2. It is sustainable as you only suffer on 2 of the days! And in time, fasting becomes strangely easy, routine and natural.

Oh and.... I wouldn't advise 4:3. That sounds like torture. 5:2 will get you there ok. It's a way of life rather than a diet. I've taken a very relaxed approach and gone from 14st 7 at end of May to 11st 13 now. In the run up to starting the 5:2 regime I would say just try to clean up your act a little. Up the protein and veg, ease down the carbs. Try to have at least a 4 hour gap between meals and resist the snacks. Fasting will be easier for it.

Fusspot, glad to hear of your success. Really great to hear it's working for you as a way of life, that's partly what attracted me to this. I'd been hearing about it for ages but the thought of not eating filled me with horror. Doing yoga in the evening really helped yesterday as night / TV time is when I pick at food, but I was so chilled I went to bed early.

I could throw my toys out of the pram today, no real loss--but I overate on bread the day before. I think need to combine this with a low carb approach to get the benefits. I'm not giving up. Next Tuesday will be a 'week' for me so will wait until then to assess!

frumpet don't go to 1200 on a nfd as you'll feel deprived & get chuffed off. As you get smaller you'll get less so don't push it too early. Look at how your eating now, try eating nice ' ' healthy & clean ' food. You can get a good meal for 500 Cal's if you plan. Use mfp to help with portions & planning.
Well-done on your loss fusspot

Weighed in this morning after 2nd fast 2nd week - I've lost 3.5 lbs. hoping I can keep it off!

Morning all trying B2B today.

do just draw a line, move on, climb back on that wagon, give yourself an encouraging pat on the back and all that..... you can do it!

same for you persis don't give yourself a hard time

MrsMcB welcome and good luck with 5;2. This might be a bit rambly but want to share my story in the hope it gives you some encouragement. As others have said, iIt's a marathon not a sprint, it takes time to change ingrained eating habits.

I was just under 17 stone 1st Jan. The potential to follow in parents' poor health footsteps of T2D, strokes, dementia, arthritis, etc finally got me motivated. Lost 1 stone through 'eat less, move more' approach in January then, thank goodness, found 5:2 and this thread. Have lost another stone, already got a lot fitter.

So, still a long way to go but now believe I can do it, especially with all the support and advice on this thread. It's not all plain sailing ,I've had small lapses and setbacks (that make me panic that I'm going to fail), . But each time I pick myself back up and then get back to it.

The things I am finding most helpful are-

On the eating front;

-drinking lots of water every day (at least 2 l more like 23 on FDs)
-No sugar or 'junk' food at all - if a FD follows any lapse on this it's noticeably harder to succeded with FD
-no snacking/grazing/nibbling between meals (again some lapses on this front)
-very healthy nutrtious food on FDs - based round prawn/salmon/egg/tuna/lentil soup plus green veg (kale/cabbage/celery) ie good quality protein plus green veg

• a little marmite if cravings hit on FD or feel rough at all (on BCF's sound advice)

-no alcohol at all (didn't drink anyway but know it would make this harder) -being very careful about what I eat post FD (as panicky 'hunger' can set in) -much smaller portions on NFDs

On the psychological/emotional front;

-trying to address all the reasons I have had the habit of 'comfort eating'
-keeping a journal on what I am learning and 'stuff' that's coming up as I lose weight and regain my 'old self'
-trying to be kind to self when old habits creep back in
-using the support of this fantastic forum to encourage and motivate me
-celebrate every little success along the way (throwing out clothes that are too big, resisting the cake in front of me,etc)

And also - gradually bit by bit increasing my daily exercise. Started very gently with daily 20 minute walk and gradually have built up to longer walks, brisker pace, a few pressups , cycling. Am now actively seeking out ways to get more exercise; and loving it. Before Xmas would just feel totally wiped out with exhaustion and joint pains if I tried.

So stick with it, good luck and you've come to the right place for support and inspiration (oh and follow BCF's advice, she knows what she's talking about!)

Sorry for PhD length post!

Hvae a good day everyone

Xposted...

Yay to annie on fantastic SV and Yay to cheeky and fusspot too well done !!!!!

Welcome frumpy good luck and take it steady. Eat your TDEE on NFDs, i'm sure BCF will explain it but you need that contrast of FD and NFD, and you need to not change your BMR AND you need to make it sustainable for the long run

Welcome, Frumpet Relax, you have come to the right place for healthy weight management

Daily walks are ideal for beginners, to improve your health & gently improve fitness.
I suggest 10 mins daily the first week, especially if you have joint or breathing issues.
A pedometer is a useful tool to see how your steps build up over time - aim for 10,000 steps eventually.

I agree with the others, don't go overboard wrt cutting intake.
Think what is sustainable longterm, because it will take several months to safely lose weight that you put on over years.
At 17 stone, standard 5:2 should give a very good rate of loss, especially since you are giving up alcohol ( a big help )

• 2000 cals sounds sensible for NFDs at your weight. Recalculate TDEE after about each stone lost.
• Do 5:2 not 4:3 (you can reserve 4:3 for a plateau later)
• Drink lots of water & no snacking

Wayhay, Annie Back to WW (Wedding Weight !)
Welcome back to the 11 stone somethings

Congrats on your SVs too, fusspot, cheeky

Persis, MrsBoatface I suggest you try eating low GI on NFDs too:

• protein (especially fish & eggs)

• sensible portions of cheese, full fat Greek Yoghurt, nuts

• loads of veg, beans, lentils, peas

• Optionally 1-2 portions (no more) of low sugar fruit e.g. berries, apple, pear and NOT banana, mango or dried fruit

• Optionally 1-2 daily SMALL portions of WHOLEGRAIN starchy carbs (wg bread, quinoa, brown rice, bulgur wheat) or potatoes (baked or + boiled, not fried or mashed)

• NO beer, Keep to nhs safe limits for wine

• Cut out - OR have moderate portions on 2 days per week:
  . Sugary baked goods, biscuits, cake, choc, sweets, ice cream, sweet sauces, custard, flavoured yoghurt etc
  . White bread, white rice, pasta, pizza, pies

For me, choc or rice pud on 2 days per week worked well - I now eat good quality sugary puds occasionally and enjoy it far more than when I was mainlining sugar ; others find they have to cut out sweet crap totally.
You know yourself best.

Hi everyone, and welcome all the newbies 😀 nfd today after successful FD yesterday, been out for the day with ds and ended up with a choice of sandwich, jacket spud or big meal type lunch (lasagne etc) so wasted far too many calories on a sandwich, I'd skipped breakfast knowing we'd be having lunch out but the lack of choices was a bit of a shitter... Anyway, will have salad and protein for tea and should be fine for tdee with a couple of glasses of wine 😁 hope all you friday fasters are doing well...

bcf I'm finding FD's easier than nfd's (I know some others do too) is this normal in the early stages?

Really enjoying reading the info for the newbies as even though I'm only 7 weeks in I'm finding bad habits slipping back in far too easily, too many sweet treats etc even though within tdee... Need to retrain my way of thinking / relationship to food.

Good luck everyone 😁

Ooh and lots of fab svs and nsvs 😀

BCF thank you . Treats on 2 days a week sounds like a good long term thing to aim for - maybe on the weekend day that I don't fast. My weight has been stable for a week at slightly below 65 kg and I am pleased with that....but I want to be free of thinking about food all the time!! So I think at least to start with I need to try the low GI, no sweet treats method - maybe I'll give it a month then see if I can reintroduce a bit of chocolate on a couple of days a week.

Hello to everyone else

apologies frumpet for getting your name wrong!

Hi persis Well done for sts for a week! Here here to getting free of thinking about food so much!

do NFDs harder for me often. I know exactly wehre I'm at on a FD iyswim. Going to plan NFD food more carefully. Weight drops off me when I avoid snacking/nibbling etc.

First B2B here and it's going well, feel very energised and full from lentil/veg/prawn combo (creature of habit here on FDs!). Got light headed walking round town 2ish so ate my lunch gloop then. Weirdly not hungry at all but think I'll have to be extra careful going into NFD tomorrow.

NSVtoday tightened belt another notch today Yay !!!! and tight fitting jeans now need a belt so time to try on the next pair in my size- ranked pile that I'm slowly working my way through

Hello again all - I drop in on these threads every so often - have been a fan of IF for about 6-7 years now when I read that alternate day fasting was good for asthma. Then I lost a bunch of weight, put two and two together and realized that apparently it's good for weight loss too, double hurrahs!

After Easter's excesses and quitting smoking for the (counts in head...) sixth time on Tuesday, I'm back on IF to help with getting rid of all the crap that has accumulated in the last few months. I'm not overweight but am consistently reassured by the health benefits from the practice.

I have a question about heart rate though. My blood pressure is roughly around 102/63 which is good, and today a little lower (96/58) as I'm on a fast day. My resting heart rate whilst I sit at my desk varies between 57-63bpm. Considering I'm no athlete and work out perhaps 3-4 times a week (not consistently, nor in the last couple of weeks and certainly not with any degree of gung-ho dedication to getting a sweat on), I'm wondering if Intermittent Fasting is the main contributor to the resting rate?

Has anyone else found their resting heart rate has lowered whilst doing IF or 5:2?

< waves to Furrywall > Good to hear you are doing well.
Yes, a fair bit of research (listed on the OP) that IF can help asthma.
I'm loudly cheering you on to finally kick those horrible cigarettes out of your life - with asthma your air assages are typically inflamed, so cigarettes would worsen this.

Heart resting rate: Yes, several people on Mosely's Fast diet site have reported their heart rate has lowered, BP too, without adding exercise.
So, it does seem fasting can make you "fitter" in that respect.
Maybe it is to do with hormosis, which is the basis of both IF and HIIT:
High load for short intervals increases physical resilience.

Need Some people find that fasting automatically resets their appetite and improves their food choices; others don't, so they have to actively train themselves on NFDs.
Learning this control is essential for longterm maintenance.

Those who have the most problems on NFDs are those who still eat like teens:
their mature bodies can no longer handle the large portion size, the eating at strange hours, snacking, the high % of junky food:
pizzas, chips, pies - and especially sugary crap - cake, biscuits, donuts, ice cream, choc, sweets.

What helps:

• Make meal plans for the NFD, or even the week ahead, so you don't make unhealthy choices on impulse
• Eat 2-4 meals per NFD
• NEVER eat out of boredom, or for any reason other than hunger
• No snacks / grazing / nibbling between meals EVER
• Eat real food, not "food-like substances" i.e. cut out the above junk 2:5 it if your prefer, i.e. moderate "treat" portions on 2 days per week
• Keep within nhs safe alcohol limits - it improves your food choices & cuts bar nibbles.

Gym this morning. A decent cv workout post fd. Feeling smug until i saw my fat reflection in the mirror
I am having wine but no other snacks and looking forward to a dry mon- Thursday combined with minful nfds, no snacking and strict fds.

OK will stick to 2000 on NFD for now and see how I fare ! I am going to do 4.3 though because I believe it will benefit my health , I have chosen the days because I am working , so leave the house at 8 and am not usually back until 5.30/6 pm , very limited opportunity for snacking during this time .

On another note , is miso soup ok ?

I usually buy lunch from a deli /bakery on my work days and consume a vast amount of lovely food in about 10 minutes ! Going to spend my week off working out some meal plans and pack ups for NFD and nice easy FD meals , I have a feeling that preparation will be the key to any success

frumpet, is Miso going to fill you up? Have it as part of a meal - remember wean off snacks etc. Count your calories, pick good foods as bcf ,said not food substitute s.
Good gym effort felicity I wimped out today but am being alcohol free this weekend. No dh to lead me astray.

Done first B2B successfully - v pleased. Have walked alot too, briskly first thing then 2 gentler ones. Feeling full of cabbage and fish! . Got NFD meals planned out for tomorrow and NO SNACKS!

Have a good weekend everyone

annielostit all the best with dry weekend. Totally much easier without the dh (all their fault )

clearskies that's fab. Was the b2b tougher than separate fds?