5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Maddy It happens, just move on.
If you feel up for it and can organise an FD supper for tonight, then go for it.
You could always turn it into a mini-FD if necessary.

MrsW Looking just at insulin: 3 smaller meals would have smaller increases than 1 big meal, but would be more often.
Diabetes UK had a study (see OP Science Section) showing that 1-2 meals per day for T2 diabetics was better for insulin control and weight loss than 6 smaller meals.

For those who find it difficult to lose weight, one meal on the FD gives slightly better results, both from theory and from reading rl experiences.

Also, the health benefits from regular fasting seem optimal from a near-zero fast for 16-22 hrs.

B&W No need for "energy" drinks, unless you are exercising for more than 90 mins. Below this, much better to use body fat.

Part of the reason exercise doesn't help many people lose weight is because they think they need sugary drinks & energy bars. These hinder fat-burning (and some contain more calories than are burned in exercise)

If you are exercising hard for 2 hrs, then there are better recipes than sugar and water, because the body needs more for optimal performance.
I posted a recipe for Anglaise on the last exercise thread for her long runs. I can dig it out again.

Thanks BC woken up feeling a little better and going to try a mini FD today to make up for yesterday. It's so much harder when I'm feeling hormonal/emotional

Maddy - don't beat yourself up, it happens. Go for a mini FD today and then just carry on. That's one main advantage men have when trying to lose weight they don't have the wild hormonal swings that we do!

As part of my determination to try and exercise more despite my disability I have ordered an exercise step with a view that I can do it whilst watching tv to distract me from how hard it is.

Morning all, good luck to everyone on FD today

I had another rough night of sleep and my weigh in today shows its remained static since last week . I know it's still early days but I am feeling a little bemused particularly as I generally feel 'lighter' already lol.

I was absolutely starving all day and ended up at 760.

The 4 I had were 260 so if I hadn't had them I would have been bang on. And no they didn't taste as good as being bang on 500 would have felt.

Not sure why today felt such a struggle

It doesn't help that we have literally not a penny in the house for food until payday this Friday. So we're eating all sorts of odds and sods to make it through.

Will do a second mini fast in the week to make up for it.

Digger Don't worry about it.
Fasting is always more difficult if you are stressed - and no money for food until payday must be v stressful.
Biscuits maybe why you were so hungry, because of the sugar spike and then crash. However, you did well in the circumstances and you definitely achieved a decent calorie deficit.

We recommend protein & veg to reduce hunger on FDs, but if you don't have suitable ingredients, you just have to do your best.
I suggest FDs with just a 500 cal supper (best for weight loss too) instead of trying to find 2-3 filling v low cal meals

On the recipe thread, B&W has some super-cheap vegan FD recipes for veg leftovers, or when you can next buy a bit of veg.
Several folk have found 5:2 can save money on food bills.

Cheese Are you monitoring your waist ? Sometimes changes show up in inches before on the scales - this is because 5:2 tends to improve body composition, i.e. % lean mass : body fat.

It may be a sign that you are overeating on NFDs though - do you mfp ?
If not, I recommend you do so for at least a full werk and check if your average exceeds your TDEE.
For many people "normal" eating & drinking can be far above TDEE, until they train themselves into eating for their body, not for their 6' gym rat mate.

Thanks for the reply big choc I'm a bit apprehensive about taking measurements because I can see myself getting carried away with the stats. I do use MFP as my reference but must admit I never log everything I eat on NFDs because so much of it is combined with family meals and quite difficult to count precisely.

FD yesterday was spot on 500.

For those on plateau or not losing much, I was exactly in this position last year. Had two or three good weeks of loss at the start and then nothing for the next few weeks. Was religious MFP-ing. However, at the same time as not losing weight and feeling despondent, I discovered jeans which had been too tight to wear were suddenly not. Then one day the scales just seemed to decide enough mind games were enough and my weight started to fall again.

Digger - I admire your will power at stopping at 4 biscuits! I have absolutely no willpower at all when it comes to sweet things - in fact if I know I have biscuits, crisps or cake left-over sometimes I can't sleep until they're gone. And by gone I mean that I eat them . Another reason January is no confectionary month for me.

Good luck to Tuesday fasters.

In respect of calories on nfd - over/under estimated. I weighed butter this morning for a toasted muffin. Portion distortion adds up to 70 Cal's extra per day on one thing. My 10g square was 20g.

Run out of charge
That could work out about 7lb in 1 year calorie wise (75 Cal's x 7 days x 52 weeks) 27000 Cal's. Scales needs to be looked at more.

I know what you mean annie, the first time I weighed mayonnaise I realised I'd been eating about 400cals worth with my salad every lunchtime. I'd recommend people weigh everything for a while, to get their heads around what they're consuming, especially calorie dense foods.

NFD for me today and I feel I'm coming down with something, feel like I have a virus of some sort brewing. My planned food is good stuff (I've had 3 types of fruit, 8 types of veg and two types of fish today) but I have 200cals left. Shall I have a Wispa Gold after dinner and go 60cals over?

Right, FD today. So far have eaten nothing and am attempting to make it through to 7pm when plan on having all my 500 cals at once (veggie shepherd's pie with vegetables). It's been fine so far. Am doing a normal day at work and have also walked the dog about 6 miles. Am hungry, as in I'd eat anything you put in front of me right now, but not miserably so. Lots of hot herbal tea is helping in this nasty cold weather.

Today is postponed from yesterday, when I tried to have a FD but abandoned it mid-morning as I'd woken up with a migraine coming on and it was getting worse and worse. I know from experience that the best way to beat them is drugs + small meals with carbs and sugar so I gave up the fight - I'd have felt really really ill trying to fast. Luckily I only tend to get migraines like that once a month and Day 4 of my cycle seems like the danger day, so I'll try to avoid designating that a FD. Today is fine.

Good effort with all that fruit & veg Sandra, it puts me to shame.
Well done olive on getting to now on bugger all fluids!!!

I am also finding it a bit of a revelation to weigh food and measure out oil etc when I'm cooking. No wonder I'm overweight - I had no idea how many calories I was consuming because I didn't have a proper grip on how much I was actually eating!

It has also been a revelation to me that an hour or two of hunger won't kill me, and that I don't have to keep eating constantly in order to feel satisfied. I was mildly tempted by one of the chocolates in our office this afternoon, but I managed to resist quite easily - previously I'd have gobbled the lot. I'm wondering if it's partly because I'm eating less sugar - not getting the highs and then the crashes?

Sandra How about a handful of nuts instead ?

Measuring Calories on NFDs
Many folk can reach goal on 5:2 without ever counting cals. Others can't.

If you don't lose the first couple of weeks, or if you stop losing after the first few weeks, you need to mfp for at least a week, for a reality check.

If this is difficult because of family meals, then at least check for calorie bombs on NFDs:

• No snacking - it increases appetite and hence total calorie intake
• Mfp "treats," e.g. a coffee shop sweet muffin or big cookie or a fancy latte may each be 400 cals
• Mfp butter, mayo, cream, ice cream, chocolate, nuts - delicious calorie bombs.
• Keep within nhs safe limits - a 750 ml bottle wine (3 big glasses) is 635 cals

Anyone who wishes to lose weight has been consuming more calories than they burn
i.e. their "normal" eating & drinking is over TDEE

If your BMI is under 27, you probably don't eat too much over TDEE, in which case maybe you won't eat back much of the FD deficit - so long as you don't start eating more than "normal" on NFDs, to compensate for FDs

However, with a low TDEE like 1500, your deficit from 2 FDs is only 1500 cals. If you consume an extra 300 cals (55g milk choc or a small muffin) per NFD, you eat back all the deficit.

If your BMI is 30+ you should lose fairly quickly on 5:2, except for the odd plateau. If you don't, well your "normal" is probably a lot over TDEE.
Mfp !

Oops, my low TDEE example was meant to be 1250, not 1500,
TDEE 1250 gives 1500 weekly deficit

How much deficit is needed to lose a 1lb?

Hi everyone great to see you doing well I had to move yesterday's planned FD to today as husband had an op on his bunion yesterday, needless to say stuck at hospital most of the day meant I was scoffing biscuits and no main meal was had however I still managed to come in around 1600.

FD done for today came in at 570 not bad considering I'm starving still (probably a knock on from all the biscuits)

Hope everyone else's FD have gone well.

Hi all. FD today finished about 550. Was very despondent this morning as I seem to have gained. Am a bit hormonal which doesn't help. I'm not back at pre chrimbo weight yet and it's peeing me off. I was over tdee on Sunday (a fair bit) so it might still be bloat from that but I was in tdee / FD for the week preceding.

I dunno I think I'm just impatient tbh.

Hello all,
Well done to all the fasters.
I tried my best today but I have raging pms . I got so worked up looking at jeremy hunts face on the news that I stormed into the kitchen and nearly ate some maltersers. I managed to stop myself but did later eat an oatcake with a thin scrape of butter n a v thin piece of cheese!
I think I came in at 600 so pretty disapointed, esp as the scales haven't moved for me for a week or so.

Smorg he makes me murderous too! You can always do a wee mini later in the week.

Good NFD today, finished on 1161 so nearly 300 saved for the weekend. FD tomorrow and been looking at the recipe thread so have a plan!

Bigchoc great example. I would not be able to do this without weighing. I obviously eat far too much normally so need to get the food scales out.