5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Edna, Smorgas Most women retain water at totm. Typically this water weight, plus another lb fat or so, would be released after the following FD.

It takes roughly 3,000 cals deficit to lose 1lb, but your body is not a computer.
On 5:2, people lose 1lb per week on average. However, if you have a lot to lose, that may be 3lb weekly for quite a while, whereas if you are trying to trim from BMI 22 to 19, your loss may be much slower.

It's quite common to have a week where you don't lose, then suddenly the scales start moving.
If this doesn't happen, you need to mfp, because you are likely eating substantially above TDEE on NFDs and eating back the FD deficit - it is the most common reason for not losing on 5:2.

Also, over-estimating activity level means you over-estimate TDEE. I suggest you set your TDEE to sedentary, unless you are very active indeed.

Broken You are gaining insight into what affects your weight and you are learning better habits - you've made important lifestyle NSVs there.

Fasting helps many people control sugar cravings, mainly because fasting can correct insulin metabolism issues, as your body switches to repair mode
FDs enable your pancreas to rest and get into shape - they are the organs which produce insulin.
On NFDs, the no snacking habit means your insulin levels aren't permanently raised, so the physical cravings are reduced.

Hi digger

I posted about these flour and water pancakes a while back, on my blog, and, among other comments, got this response:

"I love you for this idea. broke to my last penny but have many stuff home. thank you soo much. life saver"

If you follow the first link, there's lots of other things you can do with a packet of s/raising flour.

ATB!

Wow this thread moves fast!
Dinner out with DH last week was lovely- although we went for pre dinner nibbles then starter (although healthy main and no pud kept me feeling good about myself!).
Plus I was driving so very little booze consumed. Frustratingly we ended up having a big row about money at the end of the evening so it put rather a dampner on the whole evening but I shall try and ignore that part!

Just done another FD and am
Delighted to find that it was so so much easier than last week. I felt very much in the swing of things.
I also got the courage to step on the scales and I have put on 8 kg since early summer but am hoping that means it's shiftable!!

Morning all. Feeling better today as the gain has gone this am due to FD yesterday. 1lb to pre chrimbo and I'm feeling positive I'll see that loss, or close to it this Fri. I'm going military this week!!! No snacking is very hard for me (always read snacking is good for keeping metabolism fast) but I'm working very hard on it too as I now think it's no good thing.

What I meant to add above is that having always read snacking is good for metabolism it's something I have always done - well, in my adult life. One snack mid morning, another mid afternoon. So it's more breaking a habit than anything else.

Hello everyone. Edna 1lb to pre-Christmas is brilliant going. You'll smash that!
Sorry to hear so many people struggles yesterday. There must be something in the air, I did too. Came in under 1000cal but nowhere near 500. And I'm constipated again. Yuk, I feel so sluggish. I'm Sat watching Breakfast trying to shift it with coffee! (Usually works for me).
Hopefully by the time I get to the gym I'll be light as a feather again!
I will aim for a good below-TDEE today to make up for yesterday's disaster, then go all out for tomorrow's FD.
Good luck Wednesday fasters.

Morning, I get what you mean about snacks edna. Most 'diet' clubs tell you snack between meals on fruit etc.

Morning all, FD here.

Lunch prepped for work and feeling good.

Hope all other Wednesday fasters have a nice easy one today.

Morning everyone, FD yesterday managed 480cal

NFD today and looking forward to my chicken and corgehtti salad for lunch and singapore stir fry tonight.

Good luck to everyone who is fasting today! :)

Morning all. Good luck to the Wednesday fasters.

Edna Snacking is NOT good for metabolism - that is just woo without evidence.
Snacking is good for underweight people, especially children, because it encourages them to eat more in total.
Not good for adults trying to lose weight.

In fact several studies have shown that

Prolonged periods of zero-cal fasting RAISE metabolism slightly

This boost happens after 16 hours without cals and is one reason why having just one meal on an FD tends to lose a bit more weight over the weeks.

Dropping in quickly to wish all Wednesday fasters good luck.

NSV for me - last week I could tuck my jumper into my jeans. This morning I HAVE to tuck my jumper into my jeans.

I agree Edna - I'm finding it hard to break the snacking habit because I've always heard/read that it's a good thing so I've got it stuck in my head that you have to snack! But I'm doing much better now and getting used to having a hot drink without something to nibble on!

NFD for me today then FD tomorrow as OH will be out in the evening so I don't have to make him a meal! Always find it easier that way.

Avoiding the scales for now because of PMS, water weight etc!!! Smorga you could have done a lot worse than that, I'd consider your FD a success!!!

Edna, Maddy and all snackers - it's not just a habit, it's the glucose/insulin being triggered by food that makes you want to eat more quite soon. I found early on in my fasting that eating a small brekkie makes me much hungrier for lunch, whereas if I don't eat at all, I can last till 3-4 pm when I have my one 500 cals meal. That way I get 2 of those 16 hour periods that raise the metabolism, as BigChoc points out. And I need all the help I can get!

On that note, a mini-FD today. No brekkie, I think it's time for a green tea :)

For me, reading what you have said about why snacking is bad as been a real eye opener. I've always jumped on fruit, or carrot sticks, or yogurt, or any other 'healthy' snack, as something to put into my mouth when the mood struck all the time. I kind of feel a bit cheated, like I've been lied to for years. I also feel that whilst the fasting will be good for health and initial weight loss, it's the no snacking that will be key to keeping it off.

I'm feeling much better, but will hold off on a full fast day until I feel 100%, but I am aiming for good and healthy food today, as yesterday I ate total rubbish. Whilst I was glued to my bed I did watch the horizon show, which I seem to have missed doing. Absolutely fascinating, and I desperately want my dh to watch it. His df has dementia, and every time he forgets something he's absolutely convinced that he'll develop it, because obviously, working a million hours each week does wonders for your mental faculties. Anyway, it might give him the feeling of having some control over it.

Thanks Maddy, I know it could be worse but it was greed really. I had low level hunger and find it hard t get through an evening!
My mat leave finishes next week and I'm off back t work. I'll b doing two twelve hour shifts a week so will be looking how fasting will go hand in hand with that!x

was intending to Fast today but, whilst I did skip breakfast I have just had a 500 calorie lunch and I know DH is cooking curry tonight. Will try and stick to TDEE and maybe do a mini tomorrow when I am home.

Am in London today and am so cold, and Monday's FD in London ended in me feeling really ropey on the train home, I think mentally that has scuppered it for me. Ironically I do actually quite like fasting at home as I can go to the gym at lunchtime and it quells the hunger.

Granny congrats on NSV!

I totally agree with the No Snacking rule. On nfds I can't keep to it though... I always have fruit mid morning and nuts at about 5-6pm. And usually chocolate in the evening now that I have calories left over from not drinking.

Snacking has been sold to us as a good idea quite literally. The multi million pound snack food industry is to blame. If you took the snack food out of supermarkets they'd be 50% smaller I'm sure. I always think of my parents(ww2 babies) and their parents, never fat, never snacked. Those foods just didn't exist in the same way that they do now and that generation didn't watch calories either. They just ate 3 meals a day. What really makes me angry is the 'healthy' snacks that are anything but, especially cereal bars.

Second week doing 5:2, started on Monday but didn't weigh myself as no access to scales so not sure what the loss was between Monday and Friday but by the Friday I was 11st 7. Last time I weighed myself I was 11st 10. Weighed myself again on Monday and I was down to 11st 5. . Did my 3rd FD today and it was not as bad as last week, barely felt hungry and although I do have a slight headache it's not as bad as last week. Just about to tuck into my chilli from the fast cookbook, yum then early to bed to listen to my new LPs and read the rest of Dr Moseley's book

Congrats on the jeans NSV, Granny That's lost fat.
You may need a smaller size now (I hope they weren't your fav jeans !)

Mimia Several of us who are middle aged and beyond came to this WOL because of the scientific research into healthy aging, hopefully to avoid some of the diseases of aging, like Parkinsons and dementia.
Tip, B&W and I are longterm maintainers who fast for health benefits.

Re snacking: "Snacks"didn't exist when I grew up, 1950s to 1970s.
Carby "treats" were invented by the food industry in about 1980, to make big profits. They played a major role in obesity developing worldwide.

Those diets that advise you to keep snacking on fruit are really advising you to spike your insulin, stop fat-burning and start sweet cravings.
If you absolutely must eat before your FD meal, then crunch on a raw carrot, no dip .
Blossom have a carrot, not fruit !

Just another voice agreeing with the no snacking theory here. This has had a big part in my successful weight loss. I know now that once I start with 1 healthy snack, it ALWAYS leads me to eat more than I intended.

Those who "must" snack mid-morning on NFDs:

You should be able to last at least 4 hours without eating.
Human evolution hasn't changed since 1980. Habits have.

What are you having for breakfast ?
Protein, some complex carbs and veg should keep you satisfied until lunch, whereas sugary crap won't.
Avoid fruit juice - it has concentrated sugar and too little fibre.
Also avoid most breakfast cereals - also sugary crap

I rarely have breakfast, but when I do it is a cheese omelette / scrambled eggs / bacon with wholegrain low carb bread and say tomato.
I NEVER snack - thanks to Tip's wise advice when I started 5:2