5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done of everybody who is losing weight!! So inspiring!
FD today and so far 230 calls and a busy-ish afternoon/evening. I have managed to rope in DP as well today! Yay!
Good luck to all Thursday fasters! Will report tonight x

Kitchen closed apart from a cuppa later on 537c. Happy with that & a gym session early today.
Nice holking of the trousers broken
Hope FD has been kind.x

Congrats on your SV, Broken and you must be proud at getting down into the lower sub-40 BMI band.
Well done on the trouser hoiking NSV and we're all now expecting your Trousers Fell Down at Work NSV

Good FD and also with gym today, Annie

So your DP will also be 5:2ing, tostaky ? That would make fasting much easier, or even if he is just supportive on FDs wrt not waving biscuits etc under your nose.

Fist pump to breadandwine for the vegan protein explanation!

Brilliant to hear of other meat-avoiders broken and Maplessglobe I do think the protein thing is oversold. Especially considering the studies done on its effect on IGF-1?

All done my FD today. I had one small bowl of black bean chilli this evening and it was heavenly.

Hope you're all well.

Gosh, I hope my trousers don't fall down at work - that would be the ultimate embarrassment. Think I might have to set out on a shopping trip before that happens, though don't want to buy too many clothes for "interim" weights as I'm hoping not to need them for long!

Not sure if I'm proud of getting below bmi of 40, because I'm still rather ashamed of having let myself get there in the first place, but I am certainly very pleased. And I am proud of the will power that I've discovered, that I never knew I had! :)

Well done tosta, annie and LiDL on your fast days! Nearly the weekend! :)

NFD today and a bit over but not fussed as I did 1.5 hrs of hot yoga. Really good class.

MrsW Milk can increase weight, because it is quite calorie dense and has a lot of carbs and also lactose.
I switched to unsweetened almond milk - it's v v low cal and low carb, healthy too.

There is no real problem with other dairy.
Mosely says this is his book, btw. His Blood Sugar Diet recommends yoghurt & cheese.
Some studies show eating dairy helps weight loss.

Yoghurt (PLAIN) is fine, especially Greek. It helps build up friendly bacteria in your tum. Don't add honey to it. Have a few almonds & berries if you wish.

Hard cheese is also good (NOT cheese spreads or mixtures) but keep to matchbox size (about 30g) Some folk, especially low carbers, don't realise how much cheese they are eating.

in his book

Broken Mosely really boosts fish in his BSD.
He was asked on the Webchat about veggie / vegan and said he had far fewer menus to suggest if people didn't eat fish.

Oily fish has been shown to bring benefits for blood sugar control.
You certainly don't need red meat or even poultry on the BSD if you don't want them.

I recommend you eat oily fish (e.g. salmon, sardines, mackerel) 3 times per week. Eat daily eggs, cheese, yoghurt.
Most people don't lack protein, but you are having a weekly calorie deficit longterm, to lose weight, so you do need to listen to mfp warnings about any deficiencies.
Also, protein is the most filling kind of food, so helps avoid snacking and junk carbs.

I personally find I feel much better with plenty of protein and find it much easier to stay lean when I regularly eat plenty of fish, plus some chicken, beef and lamb. It avoids carb cravings.
I put my wellbeing and confort far ahead of any animal in my foodchain.

Losing weight already restricts your food to some extent, especially if you follow say the BSD.
I recommend waiting until maintenance before trying to restrict the types of food further, i.e. keep the fish at least until you are at goal weight

Morning all and congrats broken - huge NSV, well done

Had a restrained NFD yesterday. Ate far less sugar than usual (but not no sugar just let...) I think I came in around 1300cals (TDEE is about 1900).

Tonight is girls' curry night so I expect to be way over TDEE, but I'll be off to the gym at 8.30am to get a head start. Really looking forward to catching up with my buddies.

Good luck to any Friday fasters.

However, I do think we should be aiming for inclusiveness on this thread. Isn't the beauty of it that we all see the value of intermittent fasting in some form, whatever our other beliefs or practices as regards animal welfare? We can all benefit from this WOE, no?

Hear hear!
Definitely wasn't looking to start a vegan vs omni debate on here, just wanted to wave to other herbivores

As a former competitive swimmer who has lifted weights for years I absolutely feel better on a vegan diet. For me it's mainly ethical though and fully appreciate every body, and belief system, is different.

Anyway, just had a bowl of porridge with tahini and hemp seeds because I loooooove breakfast.
Wish I was one of those who didn't, but hey ho.
Good luck Friday fasters!

morning all.

still can't walk properly today (2 days of shred and very, very painful calves) and can't make up my mind whether i should do the shred again or have a rest day from it to let my muscles recover - i'll still likely get aerobic exercise like cycling and maybe a swim but i don't know if it's good for me or bad to force the same muscles through the same moves with shred when they're hurting so much again?

yesterday i broke my fast with some eggs and then later had a portion of calamari with a dip at a friend's restaurant so it was definitely a 'i want protein' day for me. i also had a fair few beers and some crisps though so i doubt i would qualify for low carbing.

today i should really be getting plenty of veggies into my body but it is quite challenging here for me as i find it hard to get fresh decent varied vegetables. i can get frozen peas and canned sweetcorn and fresh potatoes and carrots pretty easily. so i should at least stay stocked on those and make more of an effort to cook and eat them.

question - does tomato sauce like passatta (sp) count? it doesn't come naturally to me to eat it as i don't generally like tomatoes and could never eat a raw one or lumps of it in a dish but actually i can eat passata and could make an effort to do so even though i don't yum tomato sauce itms.

i feel limited with ingredients here and don't get that inspired to cook because of it (plus i have a really crap cooker - the oven is out because it doesn't even have temperature controls and you nearly blow yourself up trying to light the damned thing). i eat out more here than i would in uk - cheap yum foods are felafels, koshary (mix of pasta, chick peas, lentils and other pulses with a tomato sauce and spices) - basically carbs and pulses to like 'peasant food' the world over.

sorry i know this is waffly - i'm trying to work out how i can improve my diet. limited ingredients and not being a great cook means i'm falling back on eating the same few things a lot including, to my shame, instant noodles.

Honey Passata should be fine - processing tomatoes actually helps release their goodness It doesn't normally contain added sugar, but just check the ingredients for nasties.

I absolutely respect the ethical principles of vegans - I've had a few discussions with B&W !
I just wanted to repeat what Mosely replied on the Webchat when asked about vegetarian on his Blood Sugar diet - since his work is why most of us are here.

I'm totally pragmatic, but I consider only the welfare of the human, which I appreciate is quite a different viewpoint to those who aren't prepared to eat an animal on principle. No problem, we are all sorts here.

I think on maintenance, it's a good idea to reduce protein if you can, to maybe reduce IGF1, but higher protein while trying to lose weight does seem to help stay on track.

We always absolutely stress here the importance of eating lots of different non-starchy veg every day, so that's something we all agree.
I'm a strong advocate of protein from beans and lentils too.
[smile ] < waves Peace sign >

hmm listing ingredietns is not obligatory here and even when they are listed it's in arabic.

really i should just buy a load of the devil's fruit myself and spend a few hours making and jarring my own. on the plus side i could add a ton of garlic and herbs to suit my tastebuds and it would be a damn site cheaper as processed or convenience foods are expensive here.

desert climate here with long distances to bring in fresh veg and fruit mapless and not the best transportation conditions judging by the state they arrive in. ps. i wretched at the mention of foul being picky does not help me i know.

NFDfor me today and was just too hungry when I woke up not to do without breakfast, so can't do 16:8 today as have been doing on most of my NFD for the past few weeks. Thouroughly enjoyed a nice bowl of Dorset Nutty Muesli so hopefully that will keep me full for a while.

Off to take the dog for a power walk in a minute!

Good luck to Friday fasters!

Honey In your circs, which sounds v difficult, I'd look for tinned food too.
My mum came from the ME, so I've had many long hols there, but that was a land where there was local produce.
The local falafal and hummus might be better than the veg.

Morning all,

I have had my Friday weigh in and I'm 9st 12.6. I am utterly thrilled to break the 10st barrier at last. I'm now a comfortable size 10, which was another aim and I've started to feel confident in replenishing my wardrobe in my new size.

I had planned to start upping my exercise and get back to my Jilliam Michaels dvds once I broke 10st but am wimping out a bit as my skin always breaks out. I am thinking I might go for some strength training and pilates-type stuff rather than sweaty cardio based activity.

Planning some delicious food today and treating myself to a KitKat after dinner tonight. Tomorrow DH and I have a day and night in London, including a tasting menu at Clove Club, a restaurant I've been keen to visit for a while. So I don't plan to be too vigilant. We'll be walking a lot and I'm just going to enjoy the day and get back to fasting on Monday.

Good luck to any fasters or weighers today.

Well done on all the SV and NSV.
I'm going to do a fast day today. I'd ready eaten breakfast when I decided that so I've got 300cals left. Should be ok as I'm at work later so can't eat then anyway.

Dh has also decided to try 5:2, it's nice to have his support with this.

Congrats on your SV, Sandra and getting under the 10 stone milestone.

Thatt's good you want to boost exercise, but let's consider why your skin may be allergic to it .
ntbo:

• Have fresh clothes every time you exercise - even if you think you didn't sweat much
• Do you wash afterwards with a different soap, in hotter water, or scrub harder, or just wash more often ? I found I was washing away my skin oil, so now I use baby combined shower gel, shampoo & conditioner. Mainly just on pits, bits & feet and let the water wash away the rest. I also use birch oil afterwards on arms, legs, bum, tum.

I recommend adding strength training to tighten up that bod, e.g a pump or lifting class. Or at home do pressups, tricep dips, squats, lunges - all just bodyweight.

morning all. NFD here. Did a second FD this week as I was travelling all day Wednesday, and ended up at about 750, but it hasn't made any difference to my weight so I don't think I will bother next week as I am happy where I am.

having said that, I do have a heavy weekend in London coming up so we will see where we get to.

have a great weekend all!

Hi everyone. Well I didn't manage b2b FD today. I felt awful yesterday, very weak and shaky and the same this morning so I had a breakfast (which I never do) and felt a bit better after. I think I had overdone it as I had been eating very little since last weekend due to no appetite. I've just had my lunch - tortillas on houmous and salad and normally I'd be looking for something else but not today. Think the FDs have maybe reset my appetite.
The good news is I have finally lost 1lb This is after 4 weeks back on 5:2. I'm trying to tell myself a pound a month will still mean I'll be at goal weight by my summer holiday......

Good luck to any Friday fasters and Thankyou to bigchoc re your info about dairy and weight loss. What would we do without you?