5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Evening all and a question for B2B fasters. How long did you fast before you tried B2B? I'm scared!

Good FD today and finished on 480.

Well done, Thursday fasters.
FD tip: As soon as you finish supper, drink some water, then clean your teeth so you won't feel tempted to eat any more.

Short The ability to 2b is very individual: Even most of us oldtimers find b2b too tough, whereas the occasional newbie does it straight away.
If you feel tempted, have a go. If the 2nd FD becomes too tough, just turn it into a mini, or just a healthy NFD within TDEE.
btw, for b2b we suggest 650 cals per day, as in Michelle Harvie's human studies.

I think my favourite thing about this WOE is how much I appreciate the food I eat. I've just eaten a bowl of full fat Greek yoghurt, Sable grapes and a homemade nectarine and thyme compote. It was the most delicious thing in the world. I am now excited about my lunch, a big salad with feta, beetroot, tomato, cucumber, red onion and balsamic dressing. It has totally reset my relationship with food, I relish what I eat and want to choose delicious and nutritious food in the main with occasional splurges that I pick mindfully and enjoy without guilt.

That sums up exactly how I feel Sandras. I feel like I'm enjoying my food more now, and not less!

LiDL, I'm pescetarian, I used to be veggie. TBH I'd reverted to being almost entirely veggie again until I started doing MFP earlier this month, but I have started eating a bit more fish as it keeps telling me I need more protein! I also eat loads of beans, lentils and quinoa etc, eggs l, yoghurt and some cheese. I think I'd struggle to be vegan, but do admire those who manage it.

shortaris, I'm on my fourth week of doing 5:2 and did my first b2b earlier this week. It wasn't planned really, just accidental - I fasted on Monday, then hot half way through Tuesday and then realised that I hadn't eaten. I wasn't that hungry so, after a bit of dithering, and with a bit of encouragement from love on this thread, I decided to stick with it. I found it very easy, surprisingly!

What has been strange today is that I haven't felt the need to overcompensate for the b2b fast at all - if anything, quite the contrary. I am skipping breakfast regularly now, but I feel like I've had two very satisfying meals for lunch and dinner, but they've only come in at around 1000 calories, which is around half of my tdee. I've been following bigchoc's advice about not eating unless I'm hungry, and avoiding snacks (including all the yummy cake and choc in our office today!), and that's how it has worked out. Is it a problem being that far below tdee on a NFD, especially after a b2b fast? Is there a danger of slowing down my metabolism if I eat too little?

Hi Broken

This a very common question asked of us vegans - 'Where do you get your protein from?'

My usual flippant answer is 'The same place as gorillas, or bulls - we get it from plants!'

Here's The Vegetarian Resource Group's response:

It is very easy for a vegan diet to meet the recommendations for protein. Nearly all vegetables, beans, grains, nuts, and seeds contain some, and often much, protein. Fruits, sugars, fats, and alcohol do not provide much protein, so a diet based only on these foods would have a good chance of being too low in protein.

There's a case to be made that we eat too much protein:

Men and women in the UK eat about 45-55% more protein than they need each day, according to the National Diet and Nutrition Survey.

It's certainly not something I ever worry about!

Morning all. 2nd fast of the week today for me and I have been REALLY on it this week. NO snacking and not over TDEE. In fact yesterday total food was only 1100 and tomorrow's planned food (all good healthy stuff - brek, lunch and dinner!) is coming in as a 900 day!

Is it ok to have done FD / (almost) mini / FD / mini in one week? I truly didn't feel hungry last night after dinner - I even tried to convince myself to have a bit of choc with the spare cals but I just didn't want it! Tmoz may turn out differently as it's Friday but my meals are healthy and filling plus I think I've finally broken the snack habit / pangs.

broken congrats on your B2B fast - I knew someone else had done it this week but I'm on phone so couldn't scroll back.

short I've been fasting since last April and this week was my first B2B. Personally I wish I hadn't left it so long. I found it so much easier than 2 separate fasts. If you feel strong enough give it a go. The extra 150cals make a huge difference as well, IMO.

Edna well done on the no snacking NSV! Still something I'm trying to deal with - consciously going no/very low sugar from this week, which helps.

NFD today but will try to skip brekkie as usual.

Good luck Thursday fasters.

Thanks B&W. I have never really worried about protein intake before, but I was struck by the fact that MFP was telling me I needed more. I suspect it's partly because I'm so heavy.

So after my 2nd ravenous FD yesterday I have just done my weekly weigh in and...

The looser trousers weren't lying- I have lost another 3lbs this week making a total of 10lb since 4th Jan! Very pleased I didn't cave yesterday.

I think it's the combination of 5:2 and then 16:8 on my NFD that makes a difference for me and saving some of my TDEE allowance so I can have a bit more at the weekends.

Good luck to all the Thursday fasters!

Morning all.
FD #2 this week. Done a gym hour on coffee shot, it did help bc. I didn't last week and nearly barffed.
Well done on b2b - hard core people!!!! Am working myself up to it for next week when I'm home alone 2 days. Might try 1½ days today & tomorrow, see how I get on in the morning.

Nsv today - slipped into some trousers that were seriously cutting off blood supply before. Scales are telling me I've put weight on but I choose to believe my trousers 😁. Taking it easy today calorie wise as I know I will be splurging tomorrow. Dinner in a fancy restaurant followed by cocktails at a work event. With other "diets" I would feel guilty but with this WOE I will enjoy my meal, sensibly enjoy the work thing then reset over the weekend/nex week .

Morning everyone. Well done on your loss purple
FD here today and think I'm going to try a b2b today and tomorrow. I have had next to no appetite this week and have only been eating a lunch then nothing for dinner on NFDs so I think it should be easy enough. I've told myself that if I feel hungry tomorrow I will just have a NFD and only do today as 1 FD this week. I did 3 FD last week as I had an unintentional one on Sunday, I'm wondering if this is what's killed my appetite?
I am going to have the 650 cals for my FDs and have planned coconut Dahl with a small amount of brown rice for today I have also made 30g of overnight oats with Greek yoghurt and almond milk for a supper. That along with almond milk for my coffee takes me to just under 650.

I can't remember which poster asked about vegetarians. I have had periods of being veggie on and off through my life. Last year being the most recent I spent 8 months veggie (and about 6 weeks of that vegan-that was tough!) and gave it up to try low carbing (didn't suit me at all)
I definitely manage better on a veggie diet and I don't really like meat. I've reverted back to veggie since just after xmas and feeling much better for it.

Out of interest has anyone found that dairy stalls their weight loss? I eat loads of Greek yoghurt milk and cheese and even though I'm within TDEE I'm not losing. When I cut these out during my brief vegan stint last year I lost lots of weight but I'm not sure if it was cutting out dairy or other lifestyle factors. I know when people are low carbing dairy can stall weight loss because of the lactose. Wondering if it's the same for other WOEs?

Good luck to all today's fasters good to see a lot of new people on the thread too.

Morning all, FD here

Am going to hold out for one meal tonight, and having a low cal chicken tikka masala + pilau rice (400 cal) plus some extra veg (a mountain of spring greens probably) - I can't wait!

Currently sat with a pint of water and a cup of decaf tea on the go

Well done purple - its an ace feeling isn't it!

To those (edna? ) who were struggling to eat much on NFDs.... Its fine occasionally but I'd say if you're regularly having sub 1000 - you need to think about ways you can up that as your heading into VLCD territory which isn't too healthy - I believe anyway, bigchoc?

Theonlyweighisdown - amazing NSV there, it feels fab doesn't it!

Am thinking of throwing in 16:8 on my NFD's more intentionally now... I often do anyway by accident as I don't often eat breakfast, though do normally sit with a cup of decaf tea ( with milk). So thinking of sticking to water until lunchtime then have my tea hit. The losses have definitely slowed for me, though they're still happening so I'm not worried- just could do with a post christmas boost lol!
Whoever it was who mentioned not eating as much veg since christmas, I'm right with you there and its really annoying me! I'm still craving sweet crap too - not giving in to it, but enough that it bothers me at times - for the next week or two I'm going to have a big push on my veg to get back into the habit I think!

bigchoc that's interesting about static holds and BP - think i will also err on the side of caution. i spent much of last night reading the other thread and thinking about what i could do at home. forced myself to do the shred again today even though my calves are killing and making me walk like a duck. it's also occurred to me that i should build on a conversation i had with a lady who is nearly 50 on the beach the other day who was feeling exactly the same as me about having no real muscle tone anymore and how important it was to start building this up in middle age - two sets of motivation and commitment could be worth more than one!?

someone asked about b2b fasts - i used to do these quite a lot when i did 5:2 as despite feeling hungry on the fast day i would find the next day that i wasn't hungry and could pretty easily go a long time into the day before feeling the need to break my fast and i didn't want to waste that. i tended to not eat until mid afternoon the day after a fast even if i didn't plan to restrict to 500 cals. i got the benefits of fasting again plus they tended to end up as light days even if not as low as 500. if you're scared of b2b fasts maybe just see the second day as a mini fast (not eating till the afternoon) and an easy way to miss some calories out.

another half hour and i'll have done my 18hrs but i'm not feeling desperate or anything (weird as yesterday i was ravenous) so will try and go a bit longer. to use up some time i'm going to go out on my bike and get a few errands done in a minute. that was another habit i use to use when 5:2ing - combine distracting myself with exercise. i can remember i worked in a big college at the time and i would go on massive looping walks around the buildings incorporating loads of staircases.

used to use

Well done theonlyway, its great when your trousers don't lie. So your bum doesn't look so big in them anymore.
Your right mrD, too low cal nfd is not good, bigchoc will be along with her naughty stick later. You need to eat quality foods with more calories (Edna?) To feed your bogy.

*body not bogy.

Broken Being a lot under TDEE
Don't worry. It quite often happens after the longer fasting on b2b and is natural - your stomach wanting to ease back gradually.
It may also happen on ordinary 5:2 if you have a lot of bodyfat to burn for fuel.

If have weight to lose and you are eating nutritious food:
it doesn't matter for a few weeks - remember Mosely's Blood Sugar Diet has the 8 weeks of daily 800 cals.
Also, many pro body builders have an annual 6-8 week period on low cal (1200 for women, 1800 for men) to cut fat. They certainly don't lose muscle.

Don't go longer than 8 weeks at a time on v reduced cals though.
I gather you have the occasional splurge anyway, which is as it should be.

If your weight loss is too fast, healthy high cal options :
. a handful of nuts as your pud after lunch - excellent healthy fat & protein
. avocado
. pnut butter
. oily fish
. olive oil on salad and on baked / grilled veg

Imo, 8 weeks is the max - as in the BSD, then I'd suggest at least a month on ordinary TDEE before another BSD cycle. Maybe Mosely's site will say after repeat cycles of the BSD.

Anyone who is already lean does need to avoid prolonged periods of low cal of course.
For them, on at least 1 day per week, eat up to your full TDEE or a bit over.

Congrats on your SV, Purple That FD hunger was all the fat burning away.
Now enjoy lovely satisfying meals today.

Well done too on your trousers NSV, theonlyweigh You'll have lost fat around your mid-section, excellent dor health and shape.
The scales should catch up, if your NFDs are sensible.

according to the scales in the pharmacy, which are the only ones available to me, i have lost 3lbs in 5 days. that is an encouraging start

think thursdays will be my official weigh in day as it's the last day of the week here.

obviously not expecting to lose that quickly ongoingly but i am hoping that at least the first half stone drops off easily.

well done to all the losers - definitely feels good to see the scales change.

Right, this virus has been annoying and I haven't felt well enough to fast for over a week :(. But despite the cheering-up-chocolate plus eating basically whatever else I felt like (including a lot of oven chips as an easy option for dinner) plus very little exercise I still haven't put on any weight, I weigh exactly what I did this time last week, 3kg down on my pre-Christmas weight. Must be the virus eating up calories. Feeling quite a lot better today so am planning to do the usual 5-mile dog walk for the first time since being ill, see how that goes, and if I'm OK afterwards, will have a FD tomorrow.

Congrats on your SV, Honey That's an encouraging start.

i hope that virus is gone by tomorrow , Olive
Try to avoid junk for a few days, because your immune system still needs nutrients, not anti-nutrients like added sugar.

Thank you for all the advice re low calorie intake on NFDs. I have been eating lovely, nutritious food, just less of it. I am not deliberately denying myself on NFDs, just not eating unless I'm hungry. Still having more calories at the weekends, especially Saturday lunchtimes when I like to visit a local independent cafe with dd.

Had a sneaky mid-week weigh in as I suspect that TOTM may mess with the scales by the time I get to my normal Monday weigh-in. Was delighted to find that I have now lost just over a stone this month, and BMI is now securely under 40! Still way too high, I know, but it's a good feeling.

Have also been having to hoik up my work trousers today, they are definitely getting loose.