5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning all. Well some positive scales news. After sts after two FDs this week and minis last week and working out daily,this morning another pound was off after NFD yesterday. bigchoc I know you are right and a pound or two is so small but it does play mind games sometimes and threatens to make you want to dive into a pile of bread and cheese after the deprivation. Totm is nearly over so just that little extra pound is all I needed to keep me on track. I am 130.6 lbs and BMI 21.5 with waist to height of 0.41 but want to be 128/9 lb for some reason. It's a tiny difference but it's a big deal psychologically. Something about being under the 30, crazy I know.

Pixie Many people stall for a few weeks, then continue losing - e.g. our MrD who has had great success since.

What do you feel you have to cut on the other days ?
The idea is to maintain (i.e. TDEE) on NFDs.
On a standard diet you would have to cut those days by about 500 cals, i.e. daily TDEE-500.

Some folk are so used to overeating that TDEE seems like "dieting" but NFDs are essential training for maintenance later:
On any diet, if you return afterwards to eating more than your body needs, you'll keep regaining

I don't get a chance to catch up much on here but have found it a great resource for info and inspiration. It's nearly three weeks now for me. Took me a little while to sort out my non-FDs but think I've got my head round it now and am well on my way. Five pounds have been banished and I'm finding the way of eating really do-able. Off to the gym in a couple of hours!

Keep going everyone - you're doing great.

Just read my last post. Seeing it in black and white rather in my head has just made me realise how ridiculous I sound. I should be feeling great not beating myself up about 2 lb which will make no difference to the way I look!!! Apologies, I need to get a grip and see the bigger picture. This WOE is not just about weight loss but health. God this is free therapy!

Congrats on your SV, PrettyGreen
Sounds like you have got into the fasting swing now and making good progress.

lovemyway You - and others who are already lean - are very different to those plateauing above say BMI 25.
It's useful at the lean stage to review expectations about speed of any future loss.

Your progress is bound to be very slow requiring great discipline.
At your low BMI you are scraping at the last bit of stubborn body fat - these cells have high concentrations of alpha receptors which make them highly resistant to being burnt.
One lb per month is actually good progress at low BMI.

Remember, you are doing so well maintaining this current lean weight, but
If you return to your old WOE, you'll return to your old weight

I'm another one of those that have sts for the last week, but I'm OK with it. I tend to shed weight in a step-like pattern, a slightly larger amount (1-1.5kg) every 2-3 weeks. Also, last week was a bit of a bust due to a bad cold and TOTM, so I only really had one proper FD. Ultimately, I'm in this for the long haul, so I just have to keep on keeping on and take every day as it comes. Doing 5:2 is still infinitely easier for me than being on a very low calorie diet every single day for months and months (and that would slow down my metabolism, unlike the intermittent fasting). Keep up the good work, everyone, and good luck weekend fasters!

bigchoc your patience and knowledge is so helpful and appreciated.

Well done for the SV.

to those struggling to keep their motivation up. It's so hard psychologically when the scales don't reflect the effort you've put in. I try not to let a number dictate how I feel about myself but it's very very hard. I look in the mirror and like what I see now. Those positive thoughts can so easily be affected by whether the scale has gone slightly up. I don't like it and I know it's something I need to keep working on.

Anyways, after a hard few weeks trying to get back on track after Christmas, I'm back in my maintenance bracket. At the top of it still but I feel much better for it.

OK panic over, reading over bigchoc's advice I have realised a couple of things. 1- have double checked calorie count on a few things and realised I have been putting them down incorrectly and so have been underestimating their calorie count a little and 2) I weighed myself dressed and 3) I have got a touch obsessed with the scales. Dh has been instructed to hide them and only bring them out on a Saturday morning. Weighed myself in the all together this morning and I have actually lost just under 2lbs since my last weigh in! I also tried on a couple of tops that were a wee bit tight over my stomach and hips and they fit much better. Not perfectly but definitely heading in the right direction. So I am a happy camper this morning and do not dread my clothes shopping trip quite as much today (have a night out planned for the end of the week).

Morning everyone. Good luck to any weekend FDers!

NFD for me today. I tend to skip breakfast in the week but do look forward to it at weekends. However, last week I realised I was having a complete carb fest at the weekends and eating way too much bread. It was making me feel really bloated and achy, so I started this morning with an omelette instead, with salmon, spinach and peas. More calories than I would usually eat at breakfast, but packed with nutrients, and hopefully I'll balance out the calories later!

Morning all, well I've had a bit of a crappy week and eaten far too much on NFD's. Plan for the weekend is to eat 1200 cals ach day which should stop me from gaining. I've already eaten back my fast day deficits but this should keep me from going backwards. All sorted now and motivated to get back into exercise after various problems with my eye/my phone etc which ate into exercise time! Pretty annoyed at myself for falling into a chocolate cake when things got irritating!

Chin up, all those who STS. It's a slow process but we're getting there x

It might be a good idea to cut out bread for a week, broken
If you want to re-introduce it afterwards, I suggest trying 1 slice of wholegrain on 3 days and seeing how that goes.
You may be a bit sensitive to bread, especially white, or it could be general carb overload.

Most people can cope with starchy carbs in sensible amounts, but excess carbs - that you don't use for energy - are stored as fat.
Some folk do best longterm on fairly low carb.

Congrats on your SV, Theonlyweigh and your clothes NSV
Good to hear your sts is in fact a 2lb loss ! And probably slight inches loss too.

I undrstand measuring everything so systematically & exactly can be a pain, but if you try to measure small weekly changes, then accuracy is important.
Try to relax and then after several weeks, you suddenly realise how much all those small losses add up to.

Definitely don't weigh more often than weekly - or you'll be measuring the natural day2day fluctuations of your body's undigested food, water content etc.

Did a lovely hot yoga sesh today and been invited to a Burns Day party so going to go as I've been stuck in and feeling a bit low with it. Haggis is low cal, right?

Hi, can I join in? I have a lot of weight to lose - my BMI is over 40. I have failed every diet in the past, and in fact haven't bothered dieting in the last few years as I've felt so discouraged.

I started 5:2 on January 1st ( so cliched!) and only weigh myself once a week at the gym. So far I've lost 5kg and am really pleased. Clothes not feeling any looser yet, but I've a lot to lose so it's a start. My dh ( very slim grrr) works away some week days so I'm fasting then, so I don't have to cook for him, and then watch him eat!

So far I'm finding it easiest to delay breakfast till nearly lunchtime, so eat at about 11.30am, then have a dinner about 6pm. I'm fine during the afternoon, just drinking loads of water or tea, but really finding evenings hard and finding it hard to sleep when hungry. I had a cadburys highlights drink on my last FD at bedtime which helped a bit, but I'm trying to avoid artificial sweeteners so not great there!

I'm averaging about 550-600 cals on FDs and not counting calories on other days at all. Is this sustainable or am I going to have to get stricter as time goes on?

First FD nearly done 😄.
I've had 367 so far
Salad for lunch and I've just had some soup. If I'm hungry later I will have some porridge so may end around 540 but not bad for day one!
I'm feeling quite excited about this new WOE and reading through these threads is so helpful and reassuring that's its sustainable long term.

Had a quite a light NFD today(unintentionally) and just been for a 30 min run, first in 6 months and felt pretty good. Thought I'd give the weights and lunges a break as I was feeling quite tender. DH is cooking tonight so going to shower and pamper and try to enjoy my last 'dry' weekend of January.

Well done sparkle especially on a Saturday

allinalll it sounds just fine. Well done for getting going. It actually gets easier to fast and have gaps between meals without snacking on non fast days.

allinall that's great, I find a protein based meal in the evening quite filling,say an omelette or a chicken breast with salad or veg. Then try a hot Bovril at night to avoid sweeteners or a slim a soup(40 cals) though they are quite salty. Eventually you'll be satisfied with a herbal tea before bed....honestly

Oooh, Bovril! Haven't had that for years! That's a good idea. Not sure about finding herbal tea satisfying but maybe in time .

A teaspoon of bovril as a hot drink is 10 cals.

What does bovril taste like? I keep reading about it but ive never tried it.

Bigchoc, dont think i am overeating on my NFD. Last week was better than this week because i was luck on that i even reached my TDEE. This week think i have reached but not gone OTT with it. Realised though that it is my TOTM but its so irregular that i never know. So when i weighed myself, i definetly was heavier [always am before its due] and my legs have felt so heavy a true sign of water retention. Anway, will continue and monitor my TDEE closely as well as fitting in one more FD now and again just to spur things on. With better weather will do more walking too! May invest in a fitbit.

Welcome, allinall and congrats on your SV. An excellent start to 2016

With a BMI of 40 you should be able to lose fairly easily for a few months without worrying about counting on NFDs, just try to eat healthily most of the time.

There are a few folk here who started with BMI 40+ and they are doing very well.
Hopefully MrD will give a shout here, with her experience so far - she has lost a great deal and is still going well.

Bovril is basically a skinny beef broth, so tastes well, beefy !
I find it quite filling for 10 cals, as a starter to my main FD meal, or if I need a boost.