5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

The only sweetener with a proven health problem is fructose / fruit sugar - sounds harmless, but it can damage the liver.
Do NOT use fructose.

Fruit comes as a whole package with fibre and is not so concentrated.
Even so, don't have more than 2 portions of fruit per day - Mosely's Blood Sugar book lists 3+ daily portions as a risk factor.
So, eat more veg and avoid fruit juice except in v small portions.

Hundreds of proper scientific studies (as distinct from woo) have failed so far to produce evidence of problems with Aspartame or Splenda, other than causing sweet cravings for a minority of people. Sugar does that too.

If Splenda, aspartame or Stevia cause problems for you, then stop.
If they don't affect you, then use them - many of us do.
Satan's Whizz & Jizz, aka Coke Zero and Diet Coke, are enjoyed by many 5:2ers who don't want to give up old favs.

Thanks bigchoc, I'm not a fan of beef flavour so prob won't like that. Is there anything similar I can use?

Well done everyone who stays under their TDEE!
I find it super hard!
Yesterday and today have been NFD ... Yesterday after lunch I had eaten 900 calls then in the evening I went out (1.5 pint + large glass of red + pork belly + half a choc cheesecake) that's is way above my TDEE of 1400! Today I haven't counted but it is bound to be awful too (although only one bottled beer).

How do you stick to your TDEE? I was under the impression that as long as I was "good" for my two FD then I wouldn't have to diet the rest of the time... How wrong!

What's the best way to minimise my calories without thinking about dieting? (If poss)

Bovril reminds me of beefy hula hoops!

FD for me today. Got a cold and don't feel like eating much so think I'll be able to have just the one meal today with milk in tea. Don't think anyone else does a weekend fast day but good luck to anyone else who is doing one today.

tostaky, I've found doing a few days of 16:8 alongside 5:2 helped as does having a FD at the weekend. It's quite a flexible way of life and there will be a way to tweak it to suit you and your lifestyle.

Good luck with today's fast, boldly. Hope you're not feeling too rough with your cold!

Have some work to do at home today (doing a part time Masters) and tend to nibble while I'm doing it, mainly because I sometimes struggle with motivation. Must try to be disciplined!!!!

totasky My understanding is that the original 5:2 was for health purposes not for losing weight, that happened alongside. So, originally the studies in the Horizon programme showed that you can eat more or less what you want on those 5 days and still get health benefits. But, if you want to lose weight and learn good eating habits I think it's a good idea to try to limit sugary food and alcohol. If you eat more calories than your body needs you will store the excess. You might find. as many of us have, that after a few weeks the FDs train you to eat less and be satisfied quicker on NFDs.

Well just weighed again(addicted i know) and I'm another pound down to 129.6lb so have dipped under the 130lb magic threshold again.Also half an inch back off waistline. First time since Christmas!! Can't believe how much my body retains water on totm. Maybe my little run last night shifted it. Needless to say those little numbers on the scale mean way too much to me. Think I might try to weigh once a week instead of daily.

tostaky I have the same TDEE as you and I do find it tough.

I've been using my spiralizer a fair bit and having courgetti instead of pasta to keep cals down. I've also been eating lots of Quorn, miso soup, cod and venison as they're quite low cal.

Morning all. Well done those who have lost.

Just a couple of responses to PP having just caught up with thread...

OMIGOD breeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaddddddd.....I just fricking love it and have fully re-embraced it having low carbed for years. The flood gates have most definitely opened. I tend to stick to wholemeal, but a tiger bread bloomer fell into my trolley on Friday. I can quite easily stand at the kitchen counter with a bread knife and a tub of butter and do some real damage. I allow myself to do this occasionally now, but I do have to watch how often that happens! And if i do it that is my meal I don't eat anything else. It is worth it, if not particularly nutritious!

Sticking to tdee......the only way I can usually do this is by skipping breakfast. I have set mine to lightly active as I am at goal weight and do exercise 2-3 times a week, but I don't eat back the calories I burn. Even if I don't drink alcohol in an evening I struggle to stick to tdee if I eat anything for breakfast. I guess I am just greedy!!!

My tdee is 1650

Right, that is it i am hereby staging an intervention on myself. Some firm restrictions are required to get myself under control. All very well starving myself for 2 days a week, but not much good if you consume cosmopolitans and minstrels on the other nights.

So, rules for self until 10st has been attained (i used to think i was fat then ). No breakfasting on weekdays. No drinking in week unless a work function (very rare - but occasionally required). No chocolates in the week. Back to exercise from tues, either c25k (3rd time lucky) or on the bike (if i can convince my dh to fix it for me).

Must be good!

I agree with skipping breakfast being key to keeping the calories down. Contrary to everything I was ever taught about the importance of eating breakfast...

I'm struggling a bit with the bread thing. I don't know if I'm ready to give it up altogether, but I am trying not to binge on it like I did last weekend. TBH, I've been eating so much crap for so long that I think I'd got used to feeling crap as well. It's only now that I'm starting to eat more healthily that I'm noticing which foods don't agree with me.

Allinall, my bmi was also over 40 when I started doing 5:2 earlier this month. Weigh day is tomorrow, and I'm hoping that my new weight will mean that I've just slipped under 40. A mini milestone, perhaps, and I still have a very long way to go, but at least it's moving in the right direction.

With the TDEE, presumably we have to keep re-calculating as we lose weight, and it will get progressively lower. It's very easy for me to stay well under my current tdee because I'm so big, but I guess it gets harder as you get closer to your ideal weight. At least on weekdays, I'm trying to eat at the tdee for my target weight instead, so that I start getting used to it!!

My rules for this week are:

No breakfast
No booze till Friday
Nuts OR choc not both in one day...

Urgh, barely got one leg on the 5:2 wagon before I fell off it again! Will be starting afresh tomorrow...
Hope you're all doing better than me - wouldn't be too hard to be honest!!

Tostaky The issue is that almost everyone who became overweight did so by consuming more than their body could burn.

For some folk, that was only a little extra, so they lose on 5:2 while eating normally on NFDs, no counting.
However, some folk have got used to consuming vastly more than they can burn. This is especially so for short women, who naturally have lower TDEE.

Also, as we age, we need fewer calories unless we ramp up exercise a lot. So, what worked 10 years ago probably won't work exactly the same now.

Weight loss for many is not is not a simple calories in / out, because sugary crap, carby junk and booze tend to pile on more weight than can be accounted for by pure calories.
Someone who is insulin resistant would find it v difficult to lose on a sugary / beery diet, even staying within TDEE.

With your TDEE, I suggest you roughly plan NFDs in advance, so you don't go unexpectedly 1,000 cals over and also so that you plan food with nutrients before adding "treats".
Your weekend amount of alcohol, cheesecake etc would be fine for a big bloke on 5:2 with TDEE 3,000. With TDEE 1400, you don't have to give up all treats, but you will have to monitor the junky / boozy calorie bombs.

btw, 1400 is v low - are you already under BMI 25 ?

IIRC, that 1650 is Blossom's sedentary TDEE, which she works to.
It doesn't include the fact she does a lot of exercise, which would burn a lot of cals.

No big choc it's actually my lightly active tdee!

Iirc 1500 wax my sedentary and I calculated it at my starting weight 10 heavier than I am now so my sedentary tdee is probably 140 something now...

I'd forgotten now much you've shrunk !
"Lightly active" is better for you - I was concerned you'd be too hungry, with your exercise program

Some really inspiring experiences on here! I've known a few people who have had very successful 5:2 experiences.

A question I'd like to ask is whether it is possible to eat badly in a FD and still see results? I can't kick my sugar addiction. I know I should try harder but I'm finding it so difficult. Could I eat say a big packet if crisps and a bar of chocolate, which totals 500 cals twice a week, and still do 5:2? Or is that spectacularly missing the point and not allowed?

Unplanned FD today. Had my coffee this morning and got to 4pm and I realised I hadn't eaten and I'm not hungry at all. Since there's only a few hours until bed, I've decided just to fast today instead of tomorrow.
First time I've done a weekend FD and since Sunday night is usually a bad night for me tucking into treats it may be an idea to have a Sunday FD more often!
Hope everyone had/is having a good weekend.

hi. fasted from just before 7 last night till just after 12 today - about 17.5 hrs. did a two hour yoga class before breaking my fast then went for a good long snorkel in pretty chilly water. so active enough at least.

not watching calories or cutting beer or anything this week - just staying active and only eating in a 7hr max window. plan is i will see if that achieves anything over a couple of weeks before rejigging if needs be.

it's nearly 7 here now and i'm done with eating now - water only from here on in until at least 12 tomorrow.

i do want to lose weight but it doesn't have to be majorly rapid so long as i am getting health benefits and getting more fit and energetic. bit surprised to hear myself say that as usually it's all about getting skinny asap.

Unintentional FD today.

I had lunch and then started feeling really sick and still do. Lunch can was 320 so if I feel better later I might have soup.
I was wondering could it be because I had a FD yesterday? Not sure if it's anything to do with getting so hungry or just a coincidence.