5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Yep, set it to sedentary. I use a fitbit and walk 12,500 steps a day (around 5 miles) but not all of it at a decent pace. Other than that I'm slacking on the exercise front.

I've recorded today's calories at 1295 today. Is that too low?

Thanks for help :-)

Yes razor that's the amount of calories you can eat and not put on weight. Check what activity level you put in. They recommend you put in sedentary then any exercise is a bonus.
I'm with the others who have lost nowt since before Christmas. I reached my target though but I put on 1.8 lbs 2 weeks ago, pre period and despite 2 mini fasts last week and 2 proper fasts this week and introducing my home work outs ,I'm still 1.6 lbs up! I was hoping to lose a couple more pounds off target especially with doing dry January but it's not easy.
My period came late and I'm in the middle of it now so I'm really hoping the excess will fall off next week. I'm not letting it beat me!!!!

razor you can eat up to TDEE so if you are hungry later have something light to eat.

Thanks both.

Well done on reaching target - what a great feeling that must be! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you for a good result next week.

hi. i used to be on these threads though probably under a different name then and it's a good few years ago. it worked well for me without having to observe calories on non fast days though i did combine it with starting to wear a good pedometer and making sure i was doing more than 10000 steps every day which no doubt helped.

i'm not sure how much i weigh now - i ended up coming to the uk (i live overseas now) for about 7 weeks recently and did a lot of sitting around, a lot of drinking beer and a lot of eating as i live somewhere that doesn't have great food and has no pork products at all and very little in the way of nice cheese, convenience foods etc.

when i arrived in the uk i weighed just under 10stone (i'm 5'7) but i know i must have put on a lot of weight there - i could see the weight piling on. i am guessing i must have put on at least 10lbs but i haven't been on scales so i don't know how bad it is really. i'm going to try and get to some scales tomorrow to find out how much i weigh - i may have lost a little bit of it again already as i swim in the sea here and get around on a bicycle so have definitely increased activity and am eating a bit less but it isn't 'falling off' in the same way as it did when i was younger.

my plan is to implement a daily eating window of 6 hours - either 1pm till 7pm or 2pm till 8pm - will see which feels better. during the fasting 18hrs i'll stick to water and black coffee. i've gone for this rather than 5:2 for a few reasons one being that i really don't want to get into calorie counting or any kind of obsessing about food and i find it easier to stick to something simple re: i don't eat except at these times and i eat mindfully within that window.

i'll be combining it with adding more activity - swimming, cycling and yoga classes for now but would like to add in some muscle building exercise for general health purposes and to improve my BMR.

don't know the numbers of how much i have to lose till i weigh myself but under 10stone will be my first milestone to aim for.

sorry if this is a bit jumbled i have a child coming in and out of the room begging for food (slim, energetic 8 year old boy who is endlessly hungry).

hoping that coming on here and having some solidarity of purpose is going to help me focus and remember why i am doing this.

i'm 2hrs ahead of the uk so i'm likely to be the early bird - will stick the kettle on

oops should have added that i've also just turned 40 and that spurred me into giving up smoking tobacco about 8wks ago. im using an e cig but it still means a drop in nicotine so that may abe contributing to my new layer too. definitely all the more reason to start getting in control of my eating though.

Well done on your 1st FD, Razor

You aim for TDEE on NFDs, but somedays you don't feel hungry, so you stop when satisfied. You won't come to any harm on 1300 cals for a day.
Another time, you might feel extra hungry, or have a social occasion and eat quite a bit over TDEE.
Many people like to eat less on weekdays, to splurge a bit at the weekend.

If you roughly average TDEE over the 5 NFDs, you should lose ok.
See how you go and review progress after 2 weeks - you can tweak up / down as appropriate

Welcome back Honey and congrats on giving up the weed.
Good luck with your daily IF plan.

I totally agree it's tougher to lose weight in middle age. Could you be pre-meno, btw ?
I'll be 60 this summer and I certainly had to pay far more attention to what I ate once meno hit - as a lifelong exerciser, I was used to eating vast quantities including mountains of chocolate crap

Even if someone maintains the activity level of their 20-yr-old self (which is v unusual) their body will burn significantly fewer cals each decade, unless they increase activity / muscle.
It's v difficult to get used to permanently eating differently, but most overweight people need to do just that, especially in middle age.

Anyone with totm bloat: Hang on and try to avoid giving in to the carb cravings - it just makes you hungrier and more bloated.
You'll probably release a few lb retained water the FD after totm ends and the scales can get back on track.

Evening all been awol for the week & knuckled down to try and keep in line However like many others here I have also sts so still a pound away to reach my pre Xmas weight frustrating given my efforts MFP I averaged 1200 cals a day this week with my fast days but it is what it is I guess :(

Evening everyone! Hope any Friday FDers have done well.

NFD for me. I've eaten just under 1400 calories, so well under my tdee, but I've probably had too many carbs. Hoping I won't feel bloated as a result. I know that's where I went wrong last weekend, so will try to be careful tomorrow!

Second FD done (yay!) I am a bit worried as I was in a hotel Weds/Thurs/Fri Am so ate more than I would normally. So my first 5:2 week is complete on Sunday. Fingers crossed X

sts Checklist

. Are you already within healthy BMI ?
Then loss will be slow and you'll need to be strict.
. Have you lost inches or noticed clothes feel looser ?
If so, scales will catch up eventually.
. How long since the scales went down ?
If the sts is 1-2 weeks, ignore - your weight may fluctuate naturally 2-4 lb per week, which hides small losses.
. Is it totm ?
That causes temporary weight gain with retained water, which will be released the FD after totm.
. Are you within your sedentary TDEE over the 5 NFDs, on average ? The weekly average mfp reports is something else.
. Are you maybe adding back exercise cals with mfp ? Don't, it's misleading..
. Do you weigh or estimate ? Do you remember to include drinks ?
. Do you snack between meals on NFDs ?
. Do you eat a lot of carby junk and / drink more than nhs limits over the week ?
. Do you weigh under exactly the same conditions ?
i.e. naked in the morning after loo but before 1st drink. Scales on a hard surface, not carpet. Use them in exactly the same position & angle.

You may just need to be patient:
Sometimes, after an indulgent few weeks, your body needs time to get back into fasting fat-burning mode.

Well done to the Friday fasters !
Good luck to anyone fasting tomorrow

I am slowly getting better, thanks, Mapless.

I slept all morning, then got up, showered and got dressed for the first time in 5 days. I seemed to improve throughout the afternoon - but tired after dinner.

I may be fit enough to make a foray to the shops tomorrow with any luck!

Hope your appetite returns soon and you're back to full fitness yourself!

Seems lots of PP are sts, ATM - just hang on in there and it will happen for you!

Don't forget, even if you're not losing, the fact that you're fasting is still good for the body's cells!

That's good you're gradually getting better, B&W
But poor you, that's a nasty lingering lurgy you've suffered.
Take care you are full recovered and rested before you return to exercise - build up cautiously the first few days back.

Morning all. Just checking in for a sanity check on a busy weekend.

DH and I sent out for a lovely meal last night. I had a salmon 'cheesecake' which was delicious, then ox cheek with celeriac rosti - very delicious. DH persuaded me to share a cheesecake as well, so I had a few mouthfuls of that. It wasn't a huge amount of food though, and I was comfortably full rather than stuffed. Apart from a slice of cheese on toast that was all I ate yesterday.

Sorry to hear so many others are struggling like me. There must be something about the cold weather, dark days and general January blues.

I think I've made the decision to maintain for a couple of months, let my body get used to this new weight (and composition - fat is down to 24% and my muscle mass is much higher). I'm going to actively try to lose the last half stone from March or April.

Good luck to any Saturday fasters.

morning thanks for the welcome.

have cycled to the pharmacy to use their scales - 10st 13lbs - whoops! i'm basically a stone heavier than i was about 2 and a half months ago when i last weighed and even that might have been higher than my usual weight as i'd had a couple of days in a hotel over consuming and a long flight which often sees me retaining water.

that's a bmi of exactly 24 but i don't have a lot of muscle and bmi always seems a bit of a generous measure compared to what i can see in terms of fat around my middle. i don't have a tape measure but should see if i can buy one anywhere really so i can use measurements as well as the scales for checking progress.

i'm not officially starting today but have so far fasted for 14hrs. will eat normally today but aim to have nothing but water after 8pm. i have a yoga class tomorrow at 10 so when i come out of that it will have been 16hrs. will see how i feel about when to go for a 16:8 or 18:6. wouldn't be the end of the world to just start on 16:8 and then ease it up to 16:8 or maybe even to stick with 16:8 but do one or two longer fasts over the course of the week.

i'm sort of thinking it's best to start 'easy' both so i don't set myself up to fail and because i tend to think if you start with small changes and your body responds then you have more options if/when your body acclimatises and needs to be a little bit stressed again by more change itms?

Morning all.
Another possibility for those who have faithfully followed the 5:2 rules but sts a long time, still not lean:

Do you crave carbs and eat lots of them ?
Especially baked goods - cake, biscuits, pies, donuts... or choc, sweets,...
Is the fat around your waist in particular ?

You may be insulin-resistant

If so, you'll find it v difficult to lose even with a decent calorie deficit, unless you also go low carb.
I'd recommend Mosely's Low Carb Mediteranean version (his maintenance, not the 8-week diet)

Some people need both 5:2 and low carb - some low carbers come here when LC alone doesn't work.
Something to consider if this sounds like you.

Good luck on your 1st day, Honey
I definitely recommend the tape measure for everyone - personally I think it even more important than scales, being an indicator of visceral fat.

You might find the body visualisers useful, links under the How To Start section of the OP. They illustrate what different weights mean for your particular body and physique.

I suggest main goal for everyone is waist / height below 0.5 and then those who want to be really lean can chose their individual goal in the ideal 0.38 - 0.45 range

Well still here doing my FD on Monday Wednesday. Feeling a bit diheartened as the scales are SO stubborn. Im finding it really hard to motivate myself towards another FD but it looks like I am going to have to do 3 a week for a while. I have been doing the 5:2 now for quite a while and while i have very definetly lost, the scales really aren't budging. I just feel deep down, if i have to do the cutting out on other days etc, i would be as well as doing a normal diet!!! Just feeling a bit pissed off and sorry for myself. :( I have used the tape measure too..and very little difference tbh. When i was younger, it used to be SO easy, i agree. :( :(
Will continue though..no way will I stop but its just a bit rubbish.

I suppose I need to focus on the fact that i am now under 11 stone and i started off over 12 stone so it is still almost a whole stone that i have lost :) tries to make herself feel better

it is disheartening green but you're absolutely right that you should focus on how much you have lost. also that at least you are maintaining that loss - the reality with a conventional diet is most of us end up getting sick to death of dieting every day, give it up and rapidly regaining what we lost. you're not having to obsess every day and are maintaining.

how long have you been stalled for now? i seem to remember i had a whole month stuck the same once before it started coming off again.