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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

The 5:2 thread number 41: Springing into March or marching into spring? Either way, more sunshine means easier fast days! Come and join us in getting healthier, the fast way.

999 replies

BetsyBell · 15/03/2014 11:04

The continuing thread for those of us following the 5:2 fast or other forms of fasting such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012 and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat normally - or approximately your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE - see explanation below). 4:3 is the same except you fast on 3 days in the week. Alternate-day fasting (ADF) is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. 16:8 is another form where you stick to only eating in an 8 hour window each day, therefore fasting for 16 hours each day.

By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low; around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.

You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.

WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website or app many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a TDEE calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.

NFD = Non fast day.

NSV/LSV = Non scale victory/Lifestyle (change) victory.

Michael Mosley has a website to accompany his book on the subject. Please go check it out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!

Lurkers and new starters: please just jump in and post - you'll find a lot of support here and we’re a friendly bunch.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

Other Threads
All our previous threads can be found by browsing through the fasting section of the site.

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s resource for some of the tips and links that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!

Inspirational: eatriskier’s thread has some lovely inspiring stories which are worth checking out if you want some motivation to get started or keep going through a plateau. Please add your own too.

Recipes: frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has an incredibly informative and helpful exercise and fitness thread for discussion and advice on combining 5:2 with an exercise regime.

Maintaining: If you've been at this a while and are moving on to maintaining your goal weight, there is a thread here to discuss that.

Other links
This is a BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon - link to that programme here.

This Telegraph article comments on the diet and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley himself, very informative if you're just starting.

This blog post gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

This link nicely demonstrates that there are many ‘right’ body shapes and types, because what we are actually aiming for is low body fat for fitness and health.

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant. It also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

If you’ve been researching IF you may have come across this article which is highly negative about women with BMI in the normal range. Here’s our response to that:

  • With a healthy BMI, those who want to be leaner will usually find weight and waist loss to be much slower than for overweight folk, since, less fat and inches are available to lose.
  • The women with healthy BMIs already had healthier blood sugar than the men in the study. Hence nothing really needed improving.
  • Women who have had health problems on IF were NOT doing 5:2, but the
much tougher ADF or 16:8, ^combined with heavy lifting (often multiples of body weight) AND were often starting from already ultra-low BF 12-16% range.^

-Many were already missing periods or had EDs before IF, due to the low BF %, over-training and over-stressing.

5:2 is a gentler form of IF than ADF or Leangains and there’s plenty of anecdotal evidence from longterm 5:2ers, now with healthy BMI, who are continuing to have very positive results and experiences on this WOE.

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful.

A HUGE THANK YOU to Greeneggsandnicht for putting together all this info and resources into one concise OP text, much appreciated by so many 5:2ers!

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this way of life!

And lastly, a few FAQs/Healthy tips :

  • WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • Hot drinks: no limits on tea or coffee any day, just note any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  • FDs: concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Old hands skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.
  • NFDs: no rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar, artificial sweeteners, fizzy drinks, junk food. A few treats per week are good though! Aim to average TDEE over NFDs each week, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • CLENCH for health: men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily.
  • Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, have EDs, any illness, even a bad cold. When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So eat to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks.
  • Check with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate).
  • BREASTFEEDERS: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • SLEEP: everybody needs enough sleep, or weight loss may be slowed.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss if you you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat. HIIT works well with 5:2/IF.
OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Lily311 · 17/03/2014 05:58

Can I join pls? I'm at my heaviest and it's time for me to take control. I need to lose 2st, my weakness is eating too much in the evenings. I am lone parent to a nearly 16 month old and it seems eating is my comfort:(.

I am due to have varicose vein surgery in 2 weeks and don't want to put on even more while recovering. I am aiming for my first fast day today.

Helliecopter · 17/03/2014 07:25

I was on the previous thread too, finishing it off! And I thought it was rather quiet. Enjoyed reading your stuff about farmed fish though peplum

Having a few quiet moments in bed whilst DH is downstairs giving the girls breakfast before he goes to work. I'm avoiding breakfast today again, will have a light lunch and dinner but it's cake club tonight! I won't have much (I am much more selective than I used to be) but it's still plenty of cals.

Happy Monday everyone! Welcome all the newbies. I'm fairly new too and have jumped right in and felt very at home here, and with 5:2 so far.

Helliecopter · 17/03/2014 07:28

Oh and labra I'm BF my DD2 as well - she is almost 9 months. I didn't start this WOE until 3 weeks ago because I was eating everything in sight to make sure I kept my milk supply up. Your story sounds similar to mine but I'm a few stone heavier - I was about 10 and a half when I got pg and almost 13 after she was born...but I'm aiming to get down to 9ish too.

Megrim · 17/03/2014 07:52

Re the set point theory, I suspect that the human body probably does have a set point, but it's probably lower than we think it is as in the western world food is abundant and we have a tendency to overeat which can override the body's mechanism. There are some interesting papers out there.

Eatriskier · 17/03/2014 08:03

Got on the scales this am and they're a little higher than I'm happy with so I will 24hr fast today. Also had a bit of a booze and carb filled weekend so really feel like I need the detox. Expecting it to be difficult though considering!

Though its also Shamrock day, so I'm going for Irish stew tonight and maybe a nice irish cream liqueur before bed, possibly in a posh hot choc.

Southeastdweller · 17/03/2014 08:17

eagle I always used to think that people who were always slim were naturally like that but the truth is of course that most people have to work at it...I think I knew that deep down but I was in classic denial mode for years.

Just thought I'd chuck in a fun bit of trivia thus morning - I read yesterday in the Sunday Times that Hugh Jackman did 16:8 last year when he was filming the new Wolverine film. It certainly did him no harm Smile

Thanks for the new thread.

Good luck today everyone who's fasting.

Blondieminx · 17/03/2014 08:26

Thanks for the welcome ladies Smile I'm here as a colleague is looking AMAZING after 9 weeks on 5:2, she's lost about a stone and has got her waist back. So I wanted to find out more about this WOE - looking at the fast day recipes it's all my least favourite things - maybe that's half my problem Wink

I have never counted calories before, but middle age is starting to catch up with me and my tummy is far squidgier than I'd like! Something must be done so i thought i'd give this a whirl! I am going to struggle with exercise as I have a busted hip and knee ATM Sad so things like the Shred are off the menu for me, for now. My parents are both heavy and carry all their weight round their middles, and DM is diabetic. I'm keen to avoid weight related health problems in later life tbh!

I think my best fasting days will be Tue & Thurs, I'll be at work (office based) then.

Just been reading through the links in the OP. Good to know I get 500 cal to play with on fast days!

Overtiredmum · 17/03/2014 08:45

Morning, can i join you all here please?

I'm Overtiredmum and have a stone to lose, which I have gained since last summer Hmm The last 12 months have been pretty horrendous, after splitting from DC father and losing most of my friends and family through choices I made they didn't agree with. But I've come out finally smiling and ready to lose the extra poundage in time for summer Grin

So I've calculated my TDEE which is 1700, so if I have this right that is that I stick to on NFDs and then FDA is 500?

On FD, could I have a cup of bovril? And can I have fruit as part of my 500? I have lost weight through Cambridge system before so am used to sticking to protein etc but you couldn't have anything like fruit.

I'm really motivated into doing this, I want to start my Jillian michaels up again but having trouble with my knee Hmm

IPokedABadgerWithASpoon · 17/03/2014 08:54

Hi lily and overtired! Grin

BetsyBell · 17/03/2014 09:10

Lots of new people and de-lurkers Grin Hello to you all!

overtired Sorry to hear you've had a tough year, you're in a friendly supportive place here. You can eat anything. Proteins will keep you fuller for longer whereas carbs/sugar use up your allowance quickly and make you feel hungrier! Some people find this with fruit also (though I don't). Veg and salad go a very long way - can literally have piles of food to crunch through on minimal calories! Hot drinks of stock or bovril are highly recommended to keep you going :)

Blondie 5:2 should help with that squidge - and the looming family history of diabietes :) There are exercises you could do with just the top half of your body - I'm sure bigchoc can sort you out with some ideas... As for the healthy eating not being appealing, you might find your tastes change as you look after yourself better. Though reading through the end of the last thread I'm not sure that's the case for everyone! FOr me, however, I now tend to crave the good stuff and have lost the taste for junk. My body doesn't really tolerate it now either.

Lily Have a good read through the OP and get started! You will feel better about yourself when you take control of your eating. On this WOE you will find that you CAN do 2 evenings with no snacking, and once you know that 2 are possible then why not more? I have varicose vein issues so I'm interested in your surgery - I'm putting off getting anything done about it as, despite being scary ugly, they don't bother me at all pain-wise. Is it just a matter of time?

Should be a fast day here but I am stuffed with yet another cold trying to take over and I just had a dizzy spell. So I think I'll just keep it as healthy as possible, like I would a fast day - so avoiding processed sugar and carbs, and maximising nutrients, but not worrying too much about the calorie count or long eating gaps.

OP posts:
Eatriskier · 17/03/2014 09:43

Well bugger that - DH got my irish stew out of the freezer. Now its happily defrosting on the side I can see he got squash and lentil soup out. Not very Irish. May need to get some soda bread or something to make up!

MrsFlorrick · 17/03/2014 09:53

Welcome new people!! Grin Always nice to see new faces so to speak.

Overtired. Yes to Bovril. It's idea for a FD. 10 cals per mug. Only thing to watch on a fD is salt intake. Too many bovrils and cup a soups will add up to high salt.

Various flavours of fruit tea. Miso soup is low cal and tasty (17cals per mug).

An apple or banana can work too. If you feel you have to chew something an apple works well.

I find the worst enemy of a FD is tiredness. Sadly with two small DC I suffer a lot of that. I'm with Eatriskier that I generally don't crave junk food anymore. However when very tired I suddenly just crave salt sugar and sat fat and white carb.

Obv if you have small DC or suffer insomnia then getting more sleep may not be an option. Just saying that perhaps if you've had a very bad night, move your planned FD so you're not fighting the impossible.

Or have a mini fast (under 1000cals) so it's not too harsh. (TIP and Bigchoc will be after me for suggesting mini fasts for newbies. Blush).

And no snacking. It sounds so difficult but it works! Listen to TIP on that one.
Once you snack you often just start scoffing all sorts. It's the road to ruin.
(Says she who snacked yesterday and ended up eating a whole bar of Lindt choc Blush oops).

It's a fD here and despite a bad night I'm ploughing on with the FD. (Not listening to own advice at all Grin).
It will be a mini fast given tiredness levels.

Enjoy the sun, if you have any.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/03/2014 09:56

Welcome to 5:2 Overtired, Lily.
Smile
Many (not all) of us avoid fruit and go more low carb on FDs, but fruit and starches are absolutely fine on NFDs.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/03/2014 10:09

Set Points, Losing Weight, Maintenance, Metabolism

When losing weight, people often plateau for several weeks at a particular weight they held for years.
Persistence plus revving up exercise will eventually break through a plateau.

TDEE for Maintenance ?
The calculator TDEE may require tuning for your individual bod

Varady answered this question on FB:
"Does metabolism return to normal once your weight's been stable for 6 months after weight loss?"

*"....Unfortunately, no. Example:

  • Person A weighs 140 lb (5'6 height) for their entire adult life and TDEE 2000.
  • Person B lost 50 lb over the past year, now also weighs 140 lb (5'6 height).

The person who lost weight would have TDEE about 10-15% lower (so 1800 TDEE) than the person who was weight stable all of their adult life."

I've read some of this difference can remain for up to 10 years
Shock
The only method to combat this seems to be exercise

  1. HIIT can significantly improve insulin metabolism, in addition to directly burning calories.This helps the body in future to burn more fat and store less.

  2. Serious Resistance Training / Lifting - not girlie pink dumbbells - builds muscle. 1g muscle burns up to 7x the calories of 1g fat.

Overtiredmum · 17/03/2014 10:11

Thanks all!

I did really well with Cambridge, I found it pretty easy to fast, the not eating, or eating very little was alot easier for me than calorie counting or point counting - maybe I'm just lazy Grin

Now I'm settling into a new way of life, I want to be rid of all the excess baggage - including my weight, not just the STBXH - haha! Yesterday was such a lovely day, but the jeans are way tighter than they should be and I found myself huffing and puffing around the park after the DC and felt really self conscious of the muffin top! I'll just be really happy to lose the extra stone, I really need all my last summer's clothes to fit, I really don't have the money to buy more, plus I'm 40 in June, the weight will start to get harder to lose!

So I'm having a NFD day today, since I've already bought my lunch in to work with me, but I shall stick to me TDEE allowance which I mis-calculated and is actually 1900 (seems like loads!) and then FD tomorrow and Thursday, and then Saturday - I'm aiming for the first couple of weeks to try 4:3.

CiderwithBuda · 17/03/2014 10:36

Happy St Patrick's Day Shamrock

I thought the other thread was a bit quiet! You'd all sneaked off here! Grin

Lots of newbies. Welcome! They are a nice supportive bunch. Lots of great advice and support and inspiration.

Badger - that is am amazing loss! I am going to New York on 1 May and desperate to lose as much as possible before then. Very inspiring to read what you have managed to lose. I'm hoping for a stone by then.

womblesofwestminster · 17/03/2014 10:37

Guys, last night I binged :( :( :(

First time in over two weeks. I hate myself for it. I consumed at least 2000 calories during the binge alone. I've essentially erased a week's worth of ADF fasting. I couldn't even sleep afterwards because I felt so disgusted with myself. I hate myself. It's almost as if binging is self-harm.

I think I know one factor in what may have triggered it. I've been cutting out breakfast and snacks on NFDs as recommended on this thread. This means that I've been eating three meals on NFDs, a total of 1400 cals (about 200 cals under my TDEE). Now, bearing in mind I'm doing ADF and 5 evenings of HIIT a week, this has been quite a calorie deficit over the week. I've been gradually feeling run-down and weak, and out of sorts - basically, not healthy at all.

But now what? Go back to eating breakfast? Confused I quite liked the feeling of rebelling against breakfast.

CiderwithBuda · 17/03/2014 10:49

Wombles - sounds like you are not consuming enough. Maybe have breakfast or do 4:3 rather than ADF?

IPokedABadgerWithASpoon · 17/03/2014 10:51

Thanks cider, I have a lot to lose though, 25lbs is like taking one bucket out of the ocean ATM!

wombles please don't feel disheartened, I'm sure someone will be along with better advice in a minute but I didn't want you to have posted and no one reply quickly - its a tiny blip, please don't feel so bad just pick it up again this week?

Lily311 · 17/03/2014 11:10

Thank you for the welcome. So far so good, haven't eaten anything but filled a jug with water and I'm trying to finish it by tonight.

I have one vein on my right leg which has been visible for the past 15 years, been to doctor many times but they said it was cosmetic. After pregnancy the vein became bigger and it's now on my calf as well so surgery is imminent. It's done under local anaesthetic and I need to pay for it unfortunately but the time is right and I want to wear short skirts.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/03/2014 11:16

Wombles Don't feel bad. It happened. Just address the causes and move on. We don't do guilt here.
Anyway, an occasional high calorie day can help keep up your TDEE
Smile
Yes, your calorie deficit sounds too large and probably caused the binge.

It is only FDs where we recommend skipping breakfast
Some 5:2ers skip breakfast on NFDs too, but sounds too tough for ADF.

NFDs on ADF:

  • eat at least your 1600 TDEE, or eat up to 2000, which is still ok according to Varady
  • divide the meals as you wish, so NO hunger on NFDs
  • I recommend keeping Tip's no-snack rule, to keep a few hours between meals
  • Can you eat 3 big meals (breakfast, lunch, supper) ? Otherwise add a good afternoon tea and make supper later ?
BigChocFrenzy · 17/03/2014 11:21

btw: if you are still BFing, then 500 cals is probably too low on ADF.
Better to go to 700, so you don't feel so hungry on NFDs.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/03/2014 11:25

HIIT 5 x weekly sounds a lot, because it is very demanding.
If these are just short sessions of up to 20 mins, that's fine.

However, if they are 45 mins+, then recommended frequency is 3-4 x weekly.

So, maybe swap a session for lifting, abs.
Or even better, why not a yoga class, to chill ?

runningLou · 17/03/2014 11:28

Hi all, am starting 5:2 in the hope that it will cure me of binge eating ... am absolutely terrible with this but now it's starting to get me down. Basically would restrict during the week then binge at weekends, so overall weekly calories not too bad but OMG the guilt is unbearable and the Monday morning weigh-in is bad for the soul.
A little confused about FD and whether to do consecutive or not as I have Michelle Harvie's book and she recommends consecutive days? Also she recommends 1000 cal. per FD not the 500 that seems to be recommended here?
I am really active and do lots of exercise so I think one of the problems has been I restrict too much, then exercise, then by the end of the week am so hungry I binge.
Really hope 5:2 will help me even things out!

womblesofwestminster · 17/03/2014 11:37

It is only FDs where we recommend skipping breakfast

REALLY? Shock Because 2 weeks ago I posted my idea for a typical NFD and most people on this thread told me that breakfast and snacks on NFDs are bad and that I should be training my body to be okay with feeling hungry. Which sounded like it made sense. I made it clear I was talking about NFDs.

And I'm still bfing but only twice a day (sometimes less if DS doesn't want it). Although I think today I'm going to offer the boob regularly to try to drain off some of these calories Blush

If these are just short sessions of up to 20 mins, that's fine.

A typical workout session looks like this: I do 20 minutes of what I'd call 'proper' HIIT on the treadmill. I also do 30 minutes of Metafit (which is supposed to be HIIT but doesn't feel like it) and finally, 30 minutes of bodypump which is just weight lifting.

So you reckon I should eat breakfast on NFDs? I think that would help keep my TDEE steady.

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