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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

The 5:2 thread number 41: Springing into March or marching into spring? Either way, more sunshine means easier fast days! Come and join us in getting healthier, the fast way.

999 replies

BetsyBell · 15/03/2014 11:04

The continuing thread for those of us following the 5:2 fast or other forms of fasting such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012 and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat normally - or approximately your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE - see explanation below). 4:3 is the same except you fast on 3 days in the week. Alternate-day fasting (ADF) is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. 16:8 is another form where you stick to only eating in an 8 hour window each day, therefore fasting for 16 hours each day.

By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low; around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.

You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.

WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website or app many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a TDEE calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.

NFD = Non fast day.

NSV/LSV = Non scale victory/Lifestyle (change) victory.

Michael Mosley has a website to accompany his book on the subject. Please go check it out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!

Lurkers and new starters: please just jump in and post - you'll find a lot of support here and we’re a friendly bunch.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

Other Threads
All our previous threads can be found by browsing through the fasting section of the site.

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s resource for some of the tips and links that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!

Inspirational: eatriskier’s thread has some lovely inspiring stories which are worth checking out if you want some motivation to get started or keep going through a plateau. Please add your own too.

Recipes: frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has an incredibly informative and helpful exercise and fitness thread for discussion and advice on combining 5:2 with an exercise regime.

Maintaining: If you've been at this a while and are moving on to maintaining your goal weight, there is a thread here to discuss that.

Other links
This is a BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon - link to that programme here.

This Telegraph article comments on the diet and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley himself, very informative if you're just starting.

This blog post gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

This link nicely demonstrates that there are many ‘right’ body shapes and types, because what we are actually aiming for is low body fat for fitness and health.

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant. It also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

If you’ve been researching IF you may have come across this article which is highly negative about women with BMI in the normal range. Here’s our response to that:

  • With a healthy BMI, those who want to be leaner will usually find weight and waist loss to be much slower than for overweight folk, since, less fat and inches are available to lose.
  • The women with healthy BMIs already had healthier blood sugar than the men in the study. Hence nothing really needed improving.
  • Women who have had health problems on IF were NOT doing 5:2, but the
much tougher ADF or 16:8, ^combined with heavy lifting (often multiples of body weight) AND were often starting from already ultra-low BF 12-16% range.^

-Many were already missing periods or had EDs before IF, due to the low BF %, over-training and over-stressing.

5:2 is a gentler form of IF than ADF or Leangains and there’s plenty of anecdotal evidence from longterm 5:2ers, now with healthy BMI, who are continuing to have very positive results and experiences on this WOE.

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful.

A HUGE THANK YOU to Greeneggsandnicht for putting together all this info and resources into one concise OP text, much appreciated by so many 5:2ers!

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this way of life!

And lastly, a few FAQs/Healthy tips :

  • WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • Hot drinks: no limits on tea or coffee any day, just note any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  • FDs: concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Old hands skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.
  • NFDs: no rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar, artificial sweeteners, fizzy drinks, junk food. A few treats per week are good though! Aim to average TDEE over NFDs each week, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • CLENCH for health: men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily.
  • Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, have EDs, any illness, even a bad cold. When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So eat to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks.
  • Check with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate).
  • BREASTFEEDERS: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • SLEEP: everybody needs enough sleep, or weight loss may be slowed.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss if you you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat. HIIT works well with 5:2/IF.
OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
BigChocFrenzy · 26/03/2014 22:24

Mazzle Well done on a healthy waist !
Healthy Body Fat table for different ages is in Links at the bottom of the 52ExerciseThread

^^
Cider, Hellie, Doris, DontBeBlue, Badger, PrimalLass, Lou, HandMini ...
Put on PJs or go commando. The kitchen has gone to bed and so should you.
Smile

CiderwithBuda · 26/03/2014 22:24

Mazzle - 2 stone is brilliant! Well done.

Doris - I did indeed manage to get through. And watching it reminded me I have bob harpers book The Skinny Rules on my kindle so I might have a read of that. Your plan for your residential sounds great. My issue would be alcohol so you are lucky you are not fussed. And a reward on Sunday is a good idea too. You will be abl to enjoy a lovely dessert knowing you earned it.

Well done to other FDers who stuck with it. NFD tomorrow for me and planning on being super good.

Night all!

LakeFlyPie · 26/03/2014 22:51

Well done on cheese dodging Doris

Hope the pox passes uneventfully zed, Envy at beach walks.

Managed 1st FD of the week at work today, drinks all day and then grilled chicken with chilli, tomato and onion sauce on courgette 'noodles' for dinner.
Finding MFP a bit of a pain for calorie counting (can't be arsed with all the measurements and drop down lists this evening) so am hoping that meal came in at less than 500cals as I just had a FF mango yog (90cals).
Kitchen is now closed.
Planning next FD for friday which will be a bit of a challenge as some bright spark colleague has decided friday is now Cake Day but I shall enjoy a cup of coffee and abstain as sunday is cake day this weekend Smile

MetellaEstMater · 26/03/2014 23:12

Well done Wednesday fasters Thanks. I've had to postpone to Friday this week as had a host of three year olds here for a pizza party this afternoon. No pizza for me but I needed a Wine

Cider I've also been watching The Biggest Loser. The Aussie version on a Sky box set for me!

Peplum41 · 27/03/2014 05:50

Morning all, I know a lot fast on Thursday, so best of British and all that. Im doing one of my wierd night shifts fasts which will be of no interest to anyone but other Ns workers so will spare you the details, but its like a backwards fast where you sleep through the bad bits.

cider thanks for mentioning fennel tea, I need a different tea for when coffee starts to taste yuk, which it does on a FD after so many cups on an empty stomach. Green/normal tea make me feel sick. I already drink peppermint by the kettle ful , was looking for somethin different.

southeast you've really turned your life around haven't you? I must look up that internal dialogue part of the thread, I think it must be thread 39, I just couldn't keep up with that one and every just seemed to be unloading, which is helpful but can make for stressful reading if you're not tip top yourself. Not that I'm moaning about people unloading, its better than emotional eating, but sometimes I can't keep up with whose got what!

doris no wonder you struggle with a sainsburys on your doorstep.

bigchoc good point about the maintenance plan.

Maybe reindeer is avoiding all this chatter about venison? Deer scare easy. (groans as is dragged off thread for crap joke)

zedzedzed · 27/03/2014 08:16

pep I love a good pun or a crap joke in the morning so no slinking off.

The House of Pox had a restless morning when the baby learned to swat paintings off the wall near her cot...onto her head, no poxy signs on the baby yet but The Boy is a total Leper.; luckily he's totally unphased and blissfully unaware of how horrific he looks!

We've planned a takeaway curry for us all as we can't get to the building site house till 7pm today, so I'll swap my regular Thursday fast to Friday, hope it'll be ok, we'll be busy DIY-ing and have planned to do steak and a salad for under 600 as it means I don't have to do complicated cooking there (only have salt, pepper,a frying pan and a milk pot at the new house).

I'll miss my Thursday fast and fasters, hope you all kick its arse and I'll see y'all for some Monday hunger!

ErrolTheDragon · 27/03/2014 08:22

Morning all, Thursday FD for me. Need to go and get some more drink and do my exercise. Water and a black coffee... I don't think I'll ever aquire a taste for proper black coffee, so I got a jar of gold blend and some stevia sweeteners, that's more tolerable.

Chocupid · 27/03/2014 08:30

Can't catch up with thread till later but Wow you all sound like your doing soo well...
Even through illnesses and stressful situations.
Hats off to you all.

Doris you sound like a different person! hope you have a good trip.

I'm in with you today Errol let's have a good one. I struggle with the bullion drink yuk! And Bovril is just bare able, assuming miso is like bullion so avoided it. Looks like nothing but herbal tea for me,
unless anyone can suggest something else!

Overtiredmum · 27/03/2014 08:34

Morning all, sounds like everyone is doing great.

FD for me today, probably last one til Monday, although the weirdo I me sort of enjoys doing them Grin

So I weighed myself again yesterday morning after FD on Tuesday and I am down 7.5 lbs now since starting this WOE last Monday Grin haven't started exercising yet as my knee is still really painful but it is starting to feel a little better, so maybe the weight has been adding to the pain? I am hoping to start my Jillian michaels soon but for now I have just started walking more.
OTM x

MrsFlorrick · 27/03/2014 10:31

Zed. Sorry to hear of house of pox! Nightmare. I hope you're all better soon! (Holds hand). Brew (And Winelater)

Bigchoc. Something of scientific nature for you.....

You've mentioned previously about how being over weight disturbs your original metabolism and even when you've lost the weight, you're working below a calculated TDEE.

I wasn't over weight for that long. Less than 5 years and infact I was back at normal weight in between having DD and conceiving DS (back to normal after about 12 months) so probably 4 years total.

Here is the thing, I am now at goal (old weight, BMI 21 or just under). My seditary TDEE is 1745 and at lightly active its 1985.

I've found that if I eat to 1745, then I very slowly gain again. Sad Argh. V annoying.

So here it is, proof of what you were saying.

Now thing is, because I was only over weight for a short time and a steady very slim weight the rest of my existence, how soon do you think my metabolism will wake up and go back, as it were?
Or do you think that it doesn't matter how short a period you were over weight for, you still have 10 years of under eating ahead of you (weeps)?

In order to maintain I still need to do two FDs a week. And eat below 1745 (despite exercise) the rest. And obv I do eat more on Fridays and Saturdays but that's balanced against the two FDs.

In essence adding a weeks worth of cals and eating up looks like this: my seditary TDEE is 12,215 for 7 days.

With my two FDs and my extras a weekend and well under TDEE the rest, my average week is 9,500cals.

Any more than that and my weight creeps up.

And this is before adding workouts or anything else to it.

Sorry Bigchoc, long and confusing. But what I'm saying is that at the moment I have to eat very little in order to maintain. Clearly I'd like to eat more Grin who wouldn't.
So I'm hoping I don't have to be this strict for an entire decade.

runningLou · 27/03/2014 11:09

HELP HELP HELP I need to salvage today!!!
I have eaten 12 biscuits, and my calories for the day are already 1400 and I've not even had lunch or dinner yet. Shock
I have chocolates in the house as I've bought some for mum for mother's day and DD needs to take chocolate into school tomorrow for spring fair.
I cannot trust myself right now.
Is there any way today is not a right off??
NFD today after FD yesterday and I woke up feeling so drained and like I was walking through glue ... basically have been over-eating since 6am in an effort to feel more awake and like I can manage things ...

MazzleDazzle · 27/03/2014 11:14

Well done overtired! A cracking loss in so short a time.

Good luck in the residential Doris! Your plan sounds like a winner. Enjoy that Sunday pud!

Thanks for the body fat link BC. I'm teetering on the brink of a healthy body fat percentage!

MrsF that sounds bloody miserable! It's especially unfair when many of us are overweight through making babies. Though for me, it's a life time of eating too much chocolate.

FD here. Then weigh day tomorrow. Weekend away with the family coming up so looking forward to some good food and time to unwind. Things have been so hectic here!

Overtiredmum · 27/03/2014 11:35

Thanks Mazzle, I'm thrilled, but also scared in case I am doing something wrong, if that makes sense. I wish I could start incorporating exercise but at the moment, I just know my knee will be agony.

How weird is it that I am even chosing the healthier food over "junk". I feel so much better in myself, more alert and more energy, although I tend to find after dinner I am ready for my bed, even at 9pm at night!

CiderwithBuda · 27/03/2014 12:06

RunningLou - stp away from the biscuits! Eat something sensible - protein based will keep you fuller longer so maybe some scrambled eggs or similar? Drink lots of water.

Don't write the day off but don't use it as an excuse to binge. Plan something healthy and sensible for dinner.

MrsF - I wonder are the calorie recommendations ar too high for our sedentary lives these days. Most of us drive everywhere and use labour saving devices in the home and spend lots of time sitting watching tv or on computer etc. (or is that just me?). Even when we exercise we are really only doing what we should be doing anyway. If I were you I would try eat to 1,700 daily and not count exercise. Or less in the week and more at the weekend. I think none of use NEED the amount of food we think we need. Especially the sugary treats. And we don't DO as much as we should.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2014 12:07

Lou STOP eating, NOW !
Drink at least a pint of water, then clean your teeth.
Go for a brisk walk oitside if you can.

Make an eating plan with calorie count for today, NO more junk whatsoever, just healthy food.

Are you on 5:2 ?

  • Then only 1 small meal today, preferably supper. Aim for TDEE.

Or on ADF ?

  • then a late small lunch and a small supper. Aim for TDEE + 25%

Hang in there, be strong
Smile

somewherebecomingrain · 27/03/2014 12:19

Question - those of you who did 5:2, lost weight, stopped 5:2, put on weight again, then started 5:2 again:

Was it easier or harder the second time?

Did the weight drop quicker or slower?

Or no change?

I'm trying to come back but finding it harder

Xx

ErrolTheDragon · 27/03/2014 12:29

Chocupid - I like miso much more than boullion, I don't think they're that similar.

Lou - wrap up your mum's chocolates - they aren't yours, and the ones for the school aren't either. And do what BigChoc says.

MrsF - ha, you think your TDEE is small, try mine... the only way I know to raise BMR is to get some more muscle.

MazzleDazzle · 27/03/2014 12:29

I'm the same Overtired - lucky I see 10pm!

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2014 12:35

Maintenance, TDEE (sorry, long answer)

Some big losers here have no tendency to gain after reaching their goal. e.g. Bssh, Eat have to watch they don't drop below their desired weight.

I'm a middle-aged short-arse, but my 2400 TDEE (for intense exercise) is fine. I maintain easily.
However, I wasn't overweight when I started 5:2 and I think all my exercise shielded my metabolism from the dreadful junk binges I had.
Very importantly, I haven't had DCs.

MrsF I read that 10 years is a maximum time after weight loss that the metabolism may take to return to normal, provided it hasn't been permanently buggered by fat, meds etc
As above, some big losers apparently didn't damage their metabolism at all.

  • You mentioned having gestational diabetes, so there may be after-effects that you haven't noticed, but that will take a while to clear.
  • You dieted a few times over several years, so another factor

What should help:

Grabbing your DH by the throat and making him do / pay for more childcare so you can do these:

  • HIIT with really short intense intervals, more like Tabata. The intensity is the key to metabolic changes (rather than calorie burning) that 3 hours of jogging won't bring.
The session should not be longer than 15 mins, or the intervals are not sufficiently intense. I'm not sure JM is the correct type of HIIT, because all relevant studies are pure cardio. Swimming definitely isn't. So, you need sprint intervals on foot or stationary bike, skipping etc
  • Getting down to the absolute lowest body fat you can and maintaining this for a few weeks.
This is where JM can help, to burn calories. However, fat loss is 80% food, only 20% exercise. Try alternate weeks of 4:3

Body fat is not inert and behaves like an organ, excreting hormones etc that, among other things, affect how your bod processes, calories, fat, sugar.
The really successful maintainers here seem to have got down to around BMI 20 with no excess fat anywhere.
So, they are not buggered up by their fat cells sending out the wrong signals

MrsFlorrick · 27/03/2014 12:52

((((Bigchoc)))). Thanks for listening to my ranting. Grin

It's as I feared. The gestational diabetes has probably buggered up my metabolism forever. Argh. Annoying. And given that it happened twice, I don't think there is any denying the damage it has done.

Oh well. Grin At least I managed to lose the weight not just once but twice and I am back in my old wardrobe and at my old weight and I know I can maintain it too. Although it will mean two FDs every single week.

Could be a lot worse really. I could still be carrying the 6+ stone of baby weight and sitting around in horrible maternity gear instead of prancing around in my midlife crisis leather trousers like a show pony Wink

And I do allow myself time off at weekends for treats and Wine. Perhaps if I was stricter on weekends but then hey what's the point, you need to have some small pleasures and treats. Wink

Megrim · 27/03/2014 12:53

zed that's great news about the royal jelly perhaps starting to kick in? It was my mum that found it worked for her, after reading about it in the Daily Telegraph. She'd suffered from psoriasis from knee to ankle for about 30 years.

I found the info I previously posted on Thread 38 on 6th Feb, for anyone else that wants to try it: take 1 x 200 mg capsule every day, she found it really kicked in after about 6 weeks (she tried the 500 mg first, but found it made her skin feel very itchy, so dropped the dosage to the 200 mg).

Eatriskier · 27/03/2014 13:11

mazzle well done on 2 stone!
zed pox sucks, but will hopefully only hit your house once (unless you get unlucky and have a kid like me who gets it twice Hmm)

Struggling with fasting today, aiming for 24hrs but may fail. Decided to boot my butt into gear by clearing out the fat clothes - 10 bags to charity, 2 to ebay.

And I got DH to take this - these pants cut into me badly and helped spur me on (as they were new Shock) to start this WOE. We all need reminders sometimes.

The 5:2 thread number 41: Springing into March or marching into spring? Either way, more sunshine means easier fast days! Come and join us in getting healthier, the fast way.
Eatriskier · 27/03/2014 13:12

mazzle well done on the two stone!
zed the pox sucks, but the good thing is it shouldn't hit your house again once its gone (unless you're unlucky to have a kid like me who got it twice Hmm)

Struggling today with fasting - am trying for 24hrs but I may not make it. So I decided to force myself into needing it. All my old big clothes are bagged and about to go to charity (with a few ebay exceptions).

And I got DH to take this photo. I could barely do these trousers up when I started this WOE. Please don't look at my face!

The 5:2 thread number 41: Springing into March or marching into spring? Either way, more sunshine means easier fast days! Come and join us in getting healthier, the fast way.
BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2014 13:13

MrsF You might well be able to repair the damage, but via serious HIIT and also stripping away the few lb, especially abs.
Also, I know you hate oressups, but you need more upper body muscle. Broad shoulders also make the tum look smaller
Smile

Well done, Overtired, fantastic start. You obviously are doing 5:2 properly
A suggestion: can you lift dumbbells while sitting on a bench or sturdy chair ? Good to build up some muscle if you can, both for health and body composition.

Overtiredmum · 27/03/2014 13:14

Wow Eat, that is an amazing photo! What was before and after size??

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