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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

The 5:2 thread number 41: Springing into March or marching into spring? Either way, more sunshine means easier fast days! Come and join us in getting healthier, the fast way.

999 replies

BetsyBell · 15/03/2014 11:04

The continuing thread for those of us following the 5:2 fast or other forms of fasting such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012 and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat normally - or approximately your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE - see explanation below). 4:3 is the same except you fast on 3 days in the week. Alternate-day fasting (ADF) is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. 16:8 is another form where you stick to only eating in an 8 hour window each day, therefore fasting for 16 hours each day.

By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low; around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.

You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.

WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website or app many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a TDEE calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.

NFD = Non fast day.

NSV/LSV = Non scale victory/Lifestyle (change) victory.

Michael Mosley has a website to accompany his book on the subject. Please go check it out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!

Lurkers and new starters: please just jump in and post - you'll find a lot of support here and we’re a friendly bunch.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

Other Threads
All our previous threads can be found by browsing through the fasting section of the site.

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s resource for some of the tips and links that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!

Inspirational: eatriskier’s thread has some lovely inspiring stories which are worth checking out if you want some motivation to get started or keep going through a plateau. Please add your own too.

Recipes: frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has an incredibly informative and helpful exercise and fitness thread for discussion and advice on combining 5:2 with an exercise regime.

Maintaining: If you've been at this a while and are moving on to maintaining your goal weight, there is a thread here to discuss that.

Other links
This is a BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon - link to that programme here.

This Telegraph article comments on the diet and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley himself, very informative if you're just starting.

This blog post gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

This link nicely demonstrates that there are many ‘right’ body shapes and types, because what we are actually aiming for is low body fat for fitness and health.

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant. It also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

If you’ve been researching IF you may have come across this article which is highly negative about women with BMI in the normal range. Here’s our response to that:

  • With a healthy BMI, those who want to be leaner will usually find weight and waist loss to be much slower than for overweight folk, since, less fat and inches are available to lose.
  • The women with healthy BMIs already had healthier blood sugar than the men in the study. Hence nothing really needed improving.
  • Women who have had health problems on IF were NOT doing 5:2, but the
much tougher ADF or 16:8, ^combined with heavy lifting (often multiples of body weight) AND were often starting from already ultra-low BF 12-16% range.^

-Many were already missing periods or had EDs before IF, due to the low BF %, over-training and over-stressing.

5:2 is a gentler form of IF than ADF or Leangains and there’s plenty of anecdotal evidence from longterm 5:2ers, now with healthy BMI, who are continuing to have very positive results and experiences on this WOE.

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful.

A HUGE THANK YOU to Greeneggsandnicht for putting together all this info and resources into one concise OP text, much appreciated by so many 5:2ers!

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this way of life!

And lastly, a few FAQs/Healthy tips :

  • WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • Hot drinks: no limits on tea or coffee any day, just note any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  • FDs: concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Old hands skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.
  • NFDs: no rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar, artificial sweeteners, fizzy drinks, junk food. A few treats per week are good though! Aim to average TDEE over NFDs each week, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • CLENCH for health: men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily.
  • Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, have EDs, any illness, even a bad cold. When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So eat to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks.
  • Check with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate).
  • BREASTFEEDERS: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • SLEEP: everybody needs enough sleep, or weight loss may be slowed.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss if you you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat. HIIT works well with 5:2/IF.
OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Peplum41 · 21/03/2014 23:49

Ha, sharp on the maths there errol, btw, the first stone came off at a dizzying pace of 6 weeks. It's the 2nd stone that's been the stealthy and slow one. But its off, and off for good of that I'm sure. Glad its not just me in the slow lane.

lol eagle. They would have to be gnomes. Every so often you get some bright spark that can do links on here with decent info about this kind of thing, can't remember the facts but I remember ghrelin is to with appetite and insulin overproduction encourages the body to put down fat, esp round the middle. Leptin? Don't know what he does. Sits around stroking his beard probably.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/03/2014 23:58

Insulin:

  • Removes glucose from the blood to store as the glycogen energy reserve or as fat.
  • Removes dietary fat from the blood (note most people save dietary fat to fat stores more readily than carbs)
  • Drives amino acids into the muscles for protein synthesis

My beauty sleep calls, so this explains leptin, ghrelin and weight loss LeptinGhrelin
(ignore their ads)

ErrolTheDragon · 22/03/2014 00:03

ghrelin stimulates appetite, leptin supresses it. Insulin does all sorts of stuff - what peplum says is the part that tends to be relevant to overweight people who may have insulin resistance.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/03/2014 00:03

pic

The 5:2 thread number 41: Springing into March or marching into spring? Either way, more sunshine means easier fast days! Come and join us in getting healthier, the fast way.
Peplum41 · 22/03/2014 00:05

Thanks bigchoc

Evil plan to get some boffin to do the hard work while I sat around drinking wine worked.

He he. Stops laughing as realised I'm still fat while choc is hench. And getting beauty sleep.

Not2bObvious · 22/03/2014 06:27

Another v slow loser here (sound like a intellectually challenged social misfitConfused) At my best 19 pounds off in around 7 months but have only kept around 12-14 of that off consistently. However though, like Peplum, I'm in much better shape and have no intention of giving up/in. The weight does kinda melt away tad by tad I'm finding. I just need to break into that second stone!!! I have around 8 weeks to go to my anniversary of 5:2.
Hope the rest of your birthday went great Zed. Well done. Doris on getting back on the wagon and to anyone else who's finding it tough to stay on track and binge free, it's just a matter of getting 1 good day under your belt and keep persevering if that good day is elusive. If you can't pull a good day, add a decent walk or some activity in - make some kind of positive action if at all possible. I've been really good all week but in the back of my mind I'm kicking myself for eating so much last weekend but what's my choice, keep eating excessively or putting it behind me and moving forward?
Anyone fasting today? I'm thinking of throwing in either a mini fast with a 16:8 or maybe going the whole distance making this week a 4:3!! Never done an FD on the weekend, kinda curious to see how it might flow. Plenty to keep me busy anyway so I'm might just go ahead. Be great to hear from other Saturday fd'ersWink

BigChocFrenzy · 22/03/2014 07:05

Not2b I had a Sat or Sun FD for several weeks, back when I had to deal with weekend-long Choc Frenzies.
It corrected that habit and now my weekends are much healthier - happily greedy but not insanely so.
I recommend it. At worst, you only binge on 1 day and mostly compensate with the FD.

Not2bObvious · 22/03/2014 07:32

Thanks BC I'm going to go for it! Mightn't manage fast through til dinner time but as dinner is v calorieskind fish dish and I'm off the vino, I think I vacant keep to around 600 which is good enough since I've had 2 good fd's. Sun is shining, contemplating a run/jog/brisk walk(usually ends up as kind of a combo hence the slasheysGrin)

Not2bObvious · 22/03/2014 07:33

manage to keep to - where the heck did vacant slip in??? B*stard phone

Runlikeareindeer · 22/03/2014 07:59

FD yesterday, but have horrid cold now. Told myself didn't have to stick to 500, but had to be healthy. Don't think I did too bad.

Feel rough though. Not sure how I'm going to do 6 mile sport relief mile tomorrow though!

MazzleDazzle · 22/03/2014 09:06

(Taking a tip from Peplum).

Does anyone on here know the benefits of lemon?

E.g. warm water with lemon first thing/sprinkling lemon juice/zest on food.

Been trying this for the last week now. Could this have anything to do with my sudden loss after maintaining for a while?

By the way TiP, your before and after pics are amazing! Again, like Eat, it's hard to believe the pics are of the same person. Well done!

Have a bit of a confession: late last night I simply could not resist the Mr Kipling caramel slice I've been saving all week. BUT the first bite was bloody disappointing, the second disgusting, so gave the rest to DH!

BetsyBell · 22/03/2014 09:20

mazzle Interesting question. I used to have hot lemon water every morning but at some point I stopped. I think after starting 5:2.

I started lemon water to sooth my pregnant body that refused any of my usual morning type drinks. I also spent many years feeling awful in the mornings - queasy, nauseas type feeling - and lemon water would help.

Looking back I now realise that giving my digestive system a proper break a couple of times a week is what stops that nausea and so I drifted away from the lemon drink.

Today, I feel that same groggy, nausea again - a week of no fasting, plus a cold that's manifesting as snot and a daily toilet explosion. (TMI - sorry!).

I have also had to remind myself not to feed the nausea - did that for a long time and it is not the right solution.

Sorry, mazzle - no answer to your question, but thanks for getting me thinking (about me me me Hmm )

OP posts:
BetsyBell · 22/03/2014 09:24

It does also remind me of someone telling me that their friend had lost loads of weight by drinking a cup of honey and lemon each morning.

As an aside she said - "well she also went out for a long walk every morning before breakfast..." as if the drink was the solution, not the change in lifestyle of extra activity or delayed breakfast.

OP posts:
CiderwithBuda · 22/03/2014 09:41

BigChoc believe me he has more than an ounce to lose! Can't see him doing 5:2. Although he prob does a sort of 16:8. When not away on business he works from home and doesn't really have breakfast as such although sometimes snaffles slices of ham or cheese. Has an early lunch and then dinner. But drinks too much and eats crisps before dinner. Might suggest he joins me and see what his reaction is!

Warm water and lemon juice first thing is supposed to be really good for digestion. Also drinking a big glass of warm water with lemon will obv rehydrate more than most people's tea or coffee. I used to do it but haven't for a while. Must start again.

Feeling very lazy this morning. Must get my arse in gear and do some form of exercise. Sun is shining so might for for a walk. Although I ached a lot last night after spinning class and massage so maybe I should take it easy.

NFD here although planning on being good. Have had breakfast as was starving. SV of 8lbs off in three weeks though which makes it easier to stay in the zone this weekend. Don't want to weigh on Monday and have gained anything back.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/03/2014 10:25

Run Pamper yourself today with that bad cold. You need warm nourishing food, rest, no alcohol or junk, no housework or exercise.
Hope you recover very soon.

I know you want to do that sport relief run tomorrow, but if you still feel poorly, best not to; 6 miles is enough to really bugger your immune system when ill.
If you feel absolutely obliged to attend, then go very slowly, preferably just at a brisk walk.

DorisAllTheDay · 22/03/2014 13:46

Gawd, hot lemon. That takes me back to when my mum was on weightwatchers in the 1970s and we had this awful stuff called PLJ in the cupboard - Pure Lemon Juice (I bet it wasn't!). She had to make it up like a cordial and drink a glassful every morning. She absolutely loathed it.

Peplum and Not2Be, those are interesting posts about slow loss. You've got me wondering whether I set myself up for failure last summer/early autumn by restricting calorie intake too much and keeping up the weight loss pace when I didn't have much left to lose. I got a bit too excited at the thought of being under 9 stone, and I might have done something to upset the three elves! And as I'm large framed I probably set a target that was too low despite it being around the middle of normal BMI. Like you I'm in this for health reasons, but I got beguiled by numbers on a scale which was probably a mistake. I've been on and off the wagon ever since.

I've been reading the information BigChoc posted about leptin and grehlin. Which I'm now thinking of as the elves. It's interesting, but I'm not sure how it relates to 5:2/IF. Can someone put it into simple language for me?

Betsy, sorry to hear you're feeling rubbish. I hope your day improves. Are you able to take it easy?

Mazzle that doesn't sound like a confession, it sounds like a bloody great NSV. Hope your DH appreciated his cake!

Looking forward to hearing more from a fellow clamberer-back-on-the-wagon, Annie. Hope today isn't too drastically calorific, and I'm looking forward to hearing how you get on tomorrow and Monday.

Loving all the posts about one day at a time. They're keeping me going!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/03/2014 14:18

SCIENCE STUFF

Scientist are still trying to understand exactly how ghrelin & leptin.
What is known:

  • they are hormones which affect appetite, leptin increases it, ghrelin decreases it
-Body fat is not an inert lump. It excretes hormones etc and affects metabolism
  • folk with high body fat can have messed up signalling, so may be both leptin and insulin resistant
  • their metabolism may stay messed up even after losing weight, a major factor in why most folk regain weight as soon as they stop any "diet"
  • The TDEE of someone who has lost more than a stone may remain lower for up to 10 years than someone who has always been this weight.
  • everyone needs a maintenance plan, to avoid regain

My thoughts:

  • Intense exercise like HIIT is known to improve metabolism, which is why it helps weight loss and regain. I don't know anything else that works so well
  • The occasional oddbod on our threads,Eat, Bssh who eat what they want to maintain a low BMI have corrected their metabolism and / or changed the amount and type of calories they consume
  • All the above is independent of whether you are on IF /5:2, WW etc
BetsyBell · 22/03/2014 15:07

Doris Aww, thanks Doris. I'm having the best lazy day :) - sent DH out to do the shopping and he's cooking later too. I am curled up in a sunbeam with the cat and Netflix. Kids old enough to amuse themselves.

So are you weighing this time Doris or are you going to try and judge by clothes and general health factors? I think it's quite easy to lose sight of how much better we feel after a while on this WOE. Now, I've way more energy, which in turn means I want to exercise more, which in turn means wanting keep eating and living healthy - and thus a complete lifestyle change has occurred.

I've also found the fact that the scales stopped particularly moving 6 months ago quite liberating - shifts the focus. I've found looking at before and after type photos very helpful - it's easy to forget how much has changed.

OP posts:
PrimalLass · 22/03/2014 15:28

I'm fasting today. Was 3 bloody lb back on this morning (hormonal) so thought I'd throw another fast into the mix. Very much looking forward to dinner.

Not2bObvious · 22/03/2014 15:45

Doris I've been obsessed with the scales for years - I can one of two ways, I avoid it like the plague cause I'm scared of damage I've done or alternatively I'm on it twice a day.
My new plan for the remainder of lent (off drink/choc/crisps, had a break last weekend but back on track now) is to follow this WOL properly/honestly and not weigh til the 20th April, 4 weeks tomorrow I think? One thing I do want to get noted is my measurements. So I'm going to go purely on clothes fit for these few weeks. I have a big holiday in around 10 weeks, early 40th birthday pressie and I want to be in the best shape I can, that's my 40th b'day present to myself, I'm going to give my body the shape it deservesWink

Runlikeareindeer · 22/03/2014 19:32

I'm pretty sure I have tonsillitis :(

Helliecopter · 22/03/2014 20:10

Evening all.

Primal Saturday fast. Respect.

I've been trying to relax a bit more today, rather than be panicking about every little calorie. It's hard to get out of that mindset of eating as little as possible every day and give myself permission to eat my whole TDEE or thereabouts. Been to Ikea and resisted meatballs - chose the chick pea biryani instead NSV! and said no to the obligatory ice cream at the end NSV! I had a really small portion of roast chicken, 3 new potatoes with a huge pile of veg for tea and felt satisfied at that NSV! My day has come in around 1200, which I can't quite believe. Even if I've underestimated the cals in the biryani, it still gives me a massive margin of error. Well...we'll see!

Hope you're all having a smashing day.

Helliecopter · 22/03/2014 20:11

Oh reindeer that's crap Brew

DorisAllTheDay · 22/03/2014 20:55

Congratulations on the NSVs, Helliecopter, and poor reindeer, that sounds pretty rubbish, have some Thanks. Have you had tonsillitis before? I don't know how bad it has to get these days for them to be whisked out, is that an option for you? Congratulations on a successful FD, Primal. I too am impressed at a Saturday fast.

Cider, I think I missed your fantastic SV last time. That's a brilliant loss. [inserts round of applause icon].

Not2BeObvious and Betsy, to be honest I hadn't thought about going cold turkey on the weigh-ins until today. Clothes fit isn't the best indicator for me because I don't go in and out at the expected places (my bust and waist measure pretty much the same as each other, hips only fractionally more) so clothes fit tends to be a bit random. Having said that, going by the clothes I've got, I'm one size up from where I was last autumn. Sad Though I have to keep reminding myself I'm still five sizes down from where I was in 2012. Smile What I might do is keep a monthly check on my waist size which is the deal-breaker for me, health-wise. I'll measure tomorrow morning when hopefully the 'bloat' from my binging will have gone, and it'll be a more accurate result than Wednesday night's was. And I'll measure again in a month's time.

DorisAllTheDay · 22/03/2014 21:01

Meant to say, Not2Be, I love your target! Are you going to use your saved chocolate money from Lent to buy some new clothes for the holiday?

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